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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Release Date - Date 2011?

  1. #241
    the_last_name_left's Avatar
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazza View Post
    Why are people so self-assured? How come "gee, I've got my theories but I don't know for sure" doesn't cut it on forums? Ah well...
    I've got my theories, but....I really don't know.

    ;D

  2. #242
    Slothman's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_last_name_left View Post
    I've got my theories, but....I really don't know.

    ;D
    I used to have theories, than I started using the internet and was told I was wrong.....

  3. #243
    MaXyM's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazza View Post
    Since you apparently haven't experienced any delays in your own projects, it must be very rare (if possible at all) for delays to occur. In fact you're so sure about it you'll just go ahead and tell me I have no idea.
    I work as software developer for years and yes... there are some delays. but if project is scheduled for a year, it is impossible to delay it for next 2 years. Because no one will pay for that. An exception is when client is changing requirements and function specs during development. But it is another story.

    Fact is, any business project has schedule and must fit into to return expected profitability. Even ISI must have schedule for rF2, because:
    - they work also on another projects and have to share resources between them
    - they for sure expext some profits from rF2. Since end user price cannot grow with time spent, any time beyond schedule will lower profits. It's very simply.

    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE View Post
    I worked on military aircraft software development and upgrade (due to the OEM providing poor software!), a 5 year project which eventually took 9 years.
    So there may be a few possibilities.
    1. profit from 5 year project would be high enough to just sponsor next years of development (which is not a case of ISI and rF2)
    2. Customer paid for additional years of development (which is not a case of ISI and rF2)
    3. Company did work for free - yes... it may be case of ISI. But I don't believe in it.
    Last edited by MaXyM; 11-17-11 at 07:43 AM.

  4. #244
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  5. #245
    K Szczech's Avatar
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    I work as software developer for years and yes... there are some delays. but if project is scheduled for a year, it is impossible to delay it for next 2 years. Because no one will pay for that.
    "Impossible" ?
    That's a very narrow-minded statement. Of course it's possible to delay some project that can wait if for example, you'll get some tasty contract for something else in the meantime.

    What should company do if they see an opportunity? Tell customer - we can't do that, because we're busy?


    Additionally - rFactor 2 is not some kind of contract project, where you settle for a given price and deadline. If rFactor 2 would be crappy, less people would buy it. So spending more time on it doesn't mean working for free.

    And one more thing. When you develop software for let's say a bank - you know the requirements and functionality that will have to be implemented. They may of course changee, but usually within some limited range.
    When you're working on a simulator - it's continous research, so at the beginning of a project you basically can't predict the final complexity of the software. Things need to run in realtime and you will have to implement some functionality, then see how it works and how much more can you put into it.
    For example - how many fragments to divide tyre into? How many steps per second should simulation run for the suspension to work correctly? Untill you implement it and test it you don't know if it's accurate enough or too CPU-consuming. You can't predict how many issues you will run into with tyre model and how much time you will spend on tweaking it.
    Some other competitive products may appear on the market and force you to add more stuff to your project to keep up / stay ahead of them - otherwise it may result in less sales.

    Simply put - the idea of the software changes as you progress with implementation. Good luck defining a schedule for such project at the beginning and sticking to it
    Last edited by K Szczech; 11-17-11 at 11:36 AM.
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  6. #246
    MarcG's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    I work as software developer for years and yes... there are some delays. but if project is scheduled for a year, it is impossible to delay it for next 2 years. Because no one will pay for that. An exception is when client is changing requirements and function specs during development. But it is another story.

    Fact is, any business project has schedule and must fit into to return expected profitability. Even ISI must have schedule for rF2, because:
    - they work also on another projects and have to share resources between them
    - they for sure expext some profits from rF2. Since end user price cannot grow with time spent, any time beyond schedule will lower profits. It's very simply.



    So there may be a few possibilities.
    1. profit from 5 year project would be high enough to just sponsor next years of development (which is not a case of ISI and rF2)
    2. Customer paid for additional years of development (which is not a case of ISI and rF2)
    3. Company did work for free - yes... it may be case of ISI. But I don't believe in it.

    You're forgetting that ISI dont live off rfactor2, they have had many projects go out which took development away from RF2 in the past. Its only been the past 18months to 2 years (Correct if wrong Tim!) that ISI have put more effort into RF2s development. If they suddenly get a mutil-dollar deal to provide a platform for someone else and think "Oh RF2 can wait a few more months" then they can do that if they wish, we'll still be here waiting but the company wanting that platform wont hang around so ISI will lose a bundle of cash.

    Plus on top of all that exactly what Playlife has said, delays happen due to software development even if you have a schedule to fit around.

  7. #247
    MaXyM's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcG View Post
    You're forgetting that ISI dont live off rfactor2, they have had many projects go out which took development away from RF2 in the past. Its only been the past 18months to 2 years (Correct if wrong Tim!) that ISI have put more effort into RF2s development. If they suddenly get a mutil-dollar deal to provide a platform for someone else and think "Oh RF2 can wait a few more months" then they can do that if they wish, we'll still be here waiting but the company wanting that platform wont hang around so ISI will lose a bundle of cash.
    Yes, it is true. That's why they must use something called project schedule, and reschedule rF2 project if needed. Scheduling is just required for software project if they are assumed to be successful. No one serious company may live without it.
    BTW: I know that rF2 project is scheduled and has been rescheduled few times. Don't ask how. I have sources. For me (personally) bad way is, that they don't want to inform us about it, rather pretending that nothing has been promised.

    Quote Originally Posted by K Szczech View Post
    When you're working on a simulator - it's continuous research, so at the beginning of a project you basically can't predict the final complexity of the software.
    Might be true 2 years ago (but even in that case you have some schedule, specialized programmers can predict worktime for components etc). But we are talking about a month before release (beta - I know it)
    I just don't get they don't know rf2 features, content, are not able to answer Q&A collected for the last year... being on release stage.

    Of course you may believe in what you want. From my experience something is just wrong.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    For me (personally) bad way is, that they don't want to inform us about it, rather pretending that nothing has been promised.
    Talking about promises is a bit cheap. There's been an implicit 'promise' for a 2011 release, in that the answers to questions regarding 2011 haven't had any doubt or probability in them, but over the last few years there's been nothing promised to anyone - it's more people's expectations that aren't being met, and for sure that leads to disappointment, but you can't lay that solely at ISI's door.

    I just don't get they don't know rf2 features, content, are not able to answer Q&A collected for the last year... being on release stage.
    Best 'A' is the beta... and it's obvious that if Tim or anyone else slips up in one of their answers and someone gets the wrong impression, then the beta comes out and doesn't have/do what they expected, they'll be on this forum and having a good whinge about it. So to some extent you have to wonder if it's worth the risk.

    Either way, knowing the date doesn't change the date. If they said Dec 16th then we get it on Dec 16th... and if they don't we still get it on Dec 16th. But if there's a technical hitch right at the end and it's delayed til the 17th, they either just have that delay and we get it on the 17th, or we have thousands of posts asking where it is all through the 16th because they said it would be released. Personally I think anyone who can't stand it should just take a break, and either accept it should be here by Dec 31st and be happy when it arrives, or ignore the beta altogether and wait for the release next year

  9. #249
    K Szczech's Avatar
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    From my experience something is just wrong.
    Well, then you are obviously gathering new experience now
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  10. #250
    MaXyM's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazza View Post
    Talking about promises is a bit cheap. There's been an implicit 'promise' for a 2011 release,
    Yes.. I'm glad you point that. I believe most of us thought it will be final version release. Didn't you?
    But yet after another Tim's statement (something like "you get fun yet in 2011") I knew that there are again some changes... but why haven't communicated with us in clear and fair way? Finally the "release" has turned into beta. After half a year I knew about it.

    BTW: Assuming released beta will be unusable for leagues or drivets etc due to some issues/bugs, you will be happy with it? What about 'implicit promise for 2011 release' ?

    But we were talking about schedule and time predictions. Yes, ISI has schedule, they didn't fit into this and they don't want to inform community about those changes in strigt way (I;m not talking about reasons). They have rights to do that if they want. Doesn't matter what we think about it. But it is sad.

    But I can't agree if some one say, that building a sim as business project cannot be scheduled. That's why I reacted in my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by K Szczech View Post
    Well, then you are obviously gathering new experience now
    Really? Do you think it should influence a way my company work?

    best regards
    Last edited by MaXyM; 11-17-11 at 05:47 PM.

  11. #251
    cloudXXI's Avatar
     

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    Itīs friday in Spain......

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    Yes.. I'm glad you point that. I believe most of us thought it will be final version release. Didn't you?
    Nope

    ...I dont recall ever reading "final version".

    I do remember reading we will have rFactor2 before Christamas...you inferred that it would be final...never said it.

  13. #253
    PLAYLIFE's Avatar

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    Firstly MaXyM, you can't hang on every word and sentence people say. At the time what they say may be the truth, but over time that can change. Relationships are the perfect example of how things change; if my girlfriend said she loved me last year doesn't mean it's true now. Same with projects. What Tim said last year or earlier this year may have been the truth, but with unforeseen problems, that may change.

    If you still have the same opinions and understandings as you have from 10 years ago, you've wasted 10 years of your life. Upon learning new information and experiencing new things, do you not change your mind? Or do you blindly follow what you believed in from the beginning despite new information telling you otherwise?


    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    I just don't get they don't know rf2 features, content, are not able to answer Q&A collected for the last year... being on release stage.
    They didn't say they don't know the rF2 features. What I understood was that they didn't want to reveal the features because they are not sure what features will be available in the beta.

  14. #254
    MaXyM's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slothman View Post
    ...I dont recall ever reading "final version".I do remember reading we will have rFactor2 before Christamas...you inferred that it would be final...never said it.
    So am I. But people usually take "release" word as just release of the product. Not testing version (beta means testing), not limited one (beta will be limited regarding content and features). Why Tim just didn't say that this year only beta will be released? I quite sure ISI knew about this because has schedule. Did you know that it will be beta? What would you say if only some unplayable part will be released? Tim might say: "I never said it will be playable". Do you get my point?


    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE View Post
    If you still have the same opinions and understandings as you have from 10 years ago, you've wasted 10 years of your life. Upon learning new information and experiencing new things, do you not change your mind?
    During the last 10 years I learned that it is impossible to successfully finalize big project developed by team without project documentation and scheduling.


    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE View Post
    They didn't say they don't know the rF2 features. What I understood was that they didn't want to reveal the features because they are not sure what features will be available in the beta.
    I didn't knew that Q&A thread was dedicated to ask about beta version. I believe people asked for rF2 features in overall. We have been asked for asking and left without answers.. is it ok?

    But if you think that they don't know what features will be included in beta which is going to be released in single month... hum, what can I say.
    Last edited by MaXyM; 11-17-11 at 08:59 PM.

  15. #255
    K Szczech's Avatar
     

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    You can always say it's impossible
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    So am I. But people usually take "release" word as just release of the product. Not testing version (beta means testing), not limited one (beta will be limited regarding content and features). Why Tim just didn't say that this year only beta will be released? I quite sure ISI knew about this because has schedule. Did you know that it will be beta? What would you say if only some unplayable part will be released? Tim might say: "I never said it will be playable". Do you get my point?
    Ok, I will try to explain what I am thinking here, just not sure how it will come accross so bare with me and understand this is not aimed at you or any one individual in particular

    Personally speaking I did not ONCE think it would be the full game. I actually had a thought that MAYBE they would release the game shell with no content . I know I would find it funny.

    But here is something I didnt infer, didnt guess about but was stated many many times by Tim.

    When it is announced we will know everything.

    So why is that not enough for some people? Why is there a NEED for information about something that really, wont change your life or my life or anyone else life by KNOWING that fact?

    And once told, information will be later, why keep berrating the point that you dont have the information YOU WANT.

    There is a lot of discussion of business plans, setups, operations....but there is something a LOT of people seem to have forgotten.

    WE HAVE NOT PAID A CENT YET...so are entitled to absolutely SQUAT!!...NOTHING...NADDA..the fact we have any information is awesome regardless of what anyone thinks. I know people will quote this and go, but its bad marketing yadda yadda yadda. Well is it? I mean if people are still here demanding this and demanding that, maybe the marketing is spot on? There is interest, there is passion, there is those that are threatnening to not support the product unless their demands are met......yeh marketing is good and free at this point At the time dollars are to change hands I am POSITIVE more information will be made available so everyone can make an honest, informed decision about if this product will be what they are after.

    THEN if we pay money and items are not included that are in THAT information (not the information people THINK they have know) then, and only then do people have a "right" to complain. Sure free speech means people can think and say whatever they want.....it is their right, just the same as it is the persons listening right to ignore you completely.

    How come I am willing to give ISI the benifit of the doubt here. HISTORY. They have NEVER shafted me yet, I dont expect them to start. They have earnt my respect enough to know that they will have their reasons for doing what they are doing and I have seen nothing to suggest that they will not produce something I will be MORE than happy to pay for.

    The announcement of the Match Maker was not a surprise and I am astounded others where. The big surprise for me was the exclusion of LAN that has since been reincluded. That for me would have devestated me, but luckily it is back in. Would i have been upset if it still wasnt there....for sure, would I have said my piece asking for it to be included, absolutely, but in the end if the decision remained to remove it, I would have done the commercial voting and not bought the item.

    So I think what I am trying to say is respect goes both ways, give ISI a little and maybe they will return the favour.

    So no, I didnt expect anything to be honest, I expect to have something from ISI with rF2 badge on it, the rest I was waiting on confirmation, sure I was guessing/hoping, but that was the level of my committment

    Again not aimed at anyone in particular and is more of an observation from the whole forums. I think everyone needs to take a step back and be patient...its hard and I really cant wait but hey...its only time

  17. #257
    the_last_name_left's Avatar
     

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    if my girlfriend said she loved me last year doesn't mean it's true now.
    word!

    Crikey MaxYm......chill? It's coming. Don't fret?

  18. #258
    PLAYLIFE's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    During the last 10 years I learned that it is impossible to successfully finalize big project developed by team without project documentation and scheduling.
    No arguments there, I definitely agree with you on this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    I didn't knew that Q&A thread was dedicated to ask about beta version. I believe people asked for rF2 features in overall. We have been asked for asking and left without answers.. is it ok?
    I know when we used to 'demo' our software prior to release, we would wait until the final week before deciding what will be in the demo and what wouldn't. Ideally we'd tried to get at much work done as possible until the 11th hour, keeping in mind we had to do x hours of checking. So we didn't know what the demo would contain until a few weeks before we released the demo.

    Of course prior to the release of a demo, everything was fully certified and tested. In demos (or betas), you want to include as much content as you can without compromising its 'breakability'.

    So to answer in short, no it doesn't surprise me they are not willing to release beta features as I'm sure they are pushing for as much content as possible that is working well enough.

  19. #259
    K Szczech's Avatar
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
    During the last 10 years I learned that it is impossible to successfully finalize big project developed by team without project documentation and scheduling.
    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE View Post
    No arguments there, I definitely agree with you on this point.
    I have and argument here - Max Payne 2:
    -Tell us wheeeeen?!?
    -When it's done.
    I remember they even posted a photo of big champagne bottle that was waiting to be opened when job is done.

    An interesting read about "when it's done" in general: LINK

    I liked that phrase in it: understanding leads to acceptance - it's well worth a thought.
    Last edited by K Szczech; 11-18-11 at 04:17 AM.
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  20. #260
    10speed's Avatar

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    ISI has less than a dozen of employees. So if there are several projects at one time these guys have to switch priorities constantly. You simply cannot compare ISI to let's say codemasters, who have a strict deadline for their F1 game set by investors/publisher every year AND there are hundreds of employees available to make it all happen. It's difficult for us simracers to understand ISI would let us wait so lang with the release of rfactor2. I'm getting very impatient myself ... But at the same time I feel that there are only a few developers today who are really dedicated to simracers and pc gamers in general. Most games today are bad game console ports making false promises. Take TDU2 for example, which is a complete fail beginning with the prompt where you are supposed to press the START-button (pc version!).
    So everybody relax and have some more fun with Rfactor in the meantime.

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