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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Too complicated

  1. #21
    Foxtrot's Avatar

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    Nov 2011
    Bleh, same old crap, new thread.
    Only server should need the vmod. It should have seperate id's for cars and tracks. When client joins, server checks client for car id and current track id. Also check skin pack package or whatever for leagues. Anything beyond that is overkill imho.

    Of course the system is already fine for leagues, everyone in the league will know how to get everything. It's a useless system for casual racers and/or racers that just don't have the free time on their schedule to be in a league.

    If online racing was my big thing in RF2 I would have requested a refund already. 2 or 3 public builds released and we still have this gamebreaking feature.

  2. #22
    Marco Bijl's Avatar

     rFactor 2 Validated PC Specification @marcobijl76 Where I race 

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    What I don't get is why, because you don't like it, the vmods are per se a bad thing. The option I suggest, eliminates all troubles you would be having, and enables all features I need. So whats the problem with that? There is nothing difficult about it anymore. To the client side (for the casual racer) all seems the same as f.i. rf1. And still thats not good enough? Why force people like me, and those who join my league to use 3rd party mess like simsync, when the functions can be implemented in game without hassle for others?

    I just don't understand.

    And about the new thread thing.. Think I mentioned something about moderation already....

  3. #23
    Foxtrot's Avatar

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    Marco, I think your misreading my post.
    Nothing I said would stop you from using your custom menus, icons or whatever for your league.
    That said your idea of downloading thru the server isnt the answer either. Sure it seems great now with only a handful of addon tracks around, but down the road when guys have a hundred tracks on their server do you really think everyone should have all those tracks just to do a pick up race...

    Basicly what i'm trying to say is I like id's, I just dont like the cars and tracks sharing an id. I don't understand whats so difficult about having the server check cars and tracks seperately(preferrably current track only).

  4. #24
    Marco Bijl's Avatar

     rFactor 2 Validated PC Specification @marcobijl76 Where I race 

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    Well Foxtrot, then you didn't read my post correctly as well .

    As I suggested, with the Any RFM option enabled in multiplayer mode, you do NOT need to have ALL tracks installed, just the one you want to race on at that moment. Downloading through the server is just an extra feature for those who do want to use the extra functionality.

  5. #25
    MaXyM's Avatar

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    Let's say, your suggestion will be implemented.
    So, if client must not have content consistent with server, event if MOD links cars and tracks which client has not installed..
    What is the point to even work with ModID then?

  6. #26
    Marco Bijl's Avatar

     rFactor 2 Validated PC Specification @marcobijl76 Where I race 

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    The point is not relevant in the use you have of rfactor2.
    It's relevant in the use I take out of it. like said, the best of 2 worlds....

    For your experience, indeed there is no benefit besides the fact that the content you have, is exactly the same as on the server (so no cheating, as the modid will change when something is changed). Thats the only reason from your point of view to have the ID.

    For me, it's about the same. I know, as admin, that all members driving with the (league)mod I made have and use the same content as well. No more sneaky changes....

    So the client DOES have the same content as the server is RUNNING at that moment. The only difference to the current system is that the UNused installed content on the server is not needed at the client side, so as a client you are not obligated to have ALL the same content installed as the server has. Just the track and car you are running at that time.

  7. #27
    Pzar's Avatar
     

    New Member
    Jan 2012
    The way I think about it, it would be easier to think of VMOD as server/client profiles. And the server/client should be able to create these on the fly.

    Cars/Tracks/Sounds/UI's/etc already have Mod ID's built into them (as most of us know) and the VMOD is just a list of what's in this "mod", so the on the fly created one would (more often than not) just be a list of the ModID's of packages the server/client has installed.

    Now, as for the "you may have to download 200GB of data to play on a server", the server should be able to set hard/soft/no requirements for each package. And have a screen similar to the mod manager in which to set this.

    Hard requirements being "You must have this installed to play on this server" which would be useful for people running leagues/etc, and is fairly close to what we have now, except the VMOD process should be automated. (So like Marco was saying, the server pushes the vmod to the client when the client tries to join, and the client checks it has all the required components.)

    Soft requirements would be "The server has these components available, but doesn't require them". This one is why I was saying the client should also be able to make the vmods and push them to the server as a "This is what I have" type thing. So the server runs as normal, but when it goes to switch (for automatic servers) tracks/car types/whatever, it skips over anything that the people who are currently joined do not have. (Or if an admin tries to manually switch, it would let them know that someone doesn't have x component) This would naturally require the current track/cars to be temporarily set as "required", but it could also pass on to a client trying to join that it's only required for this session. (So in this one, the server passes the vmod to the client, so the client sees what is available on the server, but the client also passes a vmod to the server, so the server knows what the current clients have)

    No requirements are obviously just ones the server has installed, but does not intend to use.

    And while writing them up, I thought of a "banned" requirement level, specifically for UI type components, but I know not how well that one would work, it's just a small thought. With the current installing/uninstalling methods for mods, it could get messy, if there was a way to just temporarily turn them off, this one could work.



    So this would allow servers to have either tight (league servers) or loose (pub servers) control on what mods people have installed when they join. And with the way I see it running, if you have to get 9001 mods to join a server because they're all set to "required", that's a server admin problem, and if you have to download an entire series with 30 types of cars and 20 tracks just to get one car for a specific server, that's a mod packaging problem.

    That's how I see it working, (or how it should work) anyway.

  8. #28
    Silent_alarm's Avatar
     

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    Whati if when you make a server, you could choose MULTIPLE car series, multiple tracks and multiple packs as you wish and mix them up just the way you like. You should be able to take the best out of everything.

    When someone would try connet to the server, it would send a checklist of RFMOD ID's to the player like it does now. If you miss something, a pop up would appear in front of you with the missing RFMOD id(s) and mod name(s), and possible location where to download it(/them) from, the location(s) could be included somehow in the RFMOD file(s).

    For instance, someone has made a Subaru Impreza mod, and someone else has made Mitsubishi Evo mod. Neither of them would contain no tracks. Server host intends to drive these on the old 60's formula tracks and Megane Trophy tracks and on one custom road.

    Players would need 5 RFMOD files, that equals 5 RFMOD ID's.

    At the end of the day, it would be easyer if we would have seperate packages for cars and tracks. I prefer vintage tracks and modern street and race cars to be my cup of tea for most of the time. So having a huge pack of vintage racing cars taking lots of HDD space for nothing isn't so good idea just because you would want the tracks. Separating these would be a good idea, but at the same time it would bring trouble to some people because they should first find the car pack, and then the track pack.

    What comes to the PUSH system through the servers? It's a good idea but i sort of find it rather compromising for PC security. Some server could hold a modified version of some mod that has something like trojan inside, so you download the whole package with the dirty stuff because you want the mod to go play. Plus it eats the bandwith from the main thing, racing.

    While it probably wouldn't spread it for long time, it would definately hurt the online gaming community.

  9. #29
    MaXyM's Avatar

     rFactor 2 Validated PC Specification Facebook profile @@MaXyM_SRPL 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco Bijl View Post
    For me, it's about the same. I know, as admin, that all members driving with the (league)mod I made have and use the same content as well. No more sneaky changes....

    So the client DOES have the same content as the server is RUNNING at that moment. The only difference to the current system is that the UNused installed content on the server is not needed at the client side, so as a client you are not obligated to have ALL the same content installed as the server has. Just the track and car you are running at that time.
    I understand this point. But it is not reason to tight tracks and cars together.
    The goal may be reached just by verifying content of single components which are used during the connection.

  10. #30
    Spadge's Avatar

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    Component version checking prior to join is A Good Thing. It was missing in rf1, and the ensuing mismatches were enough of a problem that ISI thought about how to fix it for rf2.

    So they came up with an idea that would handle it. During beta testing this idea proved not to be the solution it was hoped to be and ISI are looking at how to use what was good in the idea without the bad.

    The only things wrong with the rfmod/vmod system as it currently stands is that it is not transparent to the end user and that it limits sessions to car/track combinations for pick-up races. If I were running a league I'd be pretty happy to use the rfmod/vmod system almost exactly as it is right now.
    --
    Intoccabile

  11. #31
    rer8's Avatar

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    There has to be a better way.
    Last edited by rer8; 06-25-12 at 08:11 AM.

  12. #32
    jimcarrel's Avatar

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    rer8, agree, it is a pain in the bum.
    The only good thing I have gotten out of "this", is you meet new people while trying to help them get on a server.

    Usually its a matter of tracks being placed in the right folder, but never clicked on and "installed" in the Mod Manager. Even people that know what they are doing miss the "no" in the install column of Mod Manager. Even done it myself and knew better.

  13. #33
    Tony's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by FraG View Post
    ..In our experience of running public rf1 servers, it was hard enough to get the guys to download a custom track let alone what will be required in rf2. The term shooting ones self in the foot comes to mind... the general racers are just not going to be willing to do all what is required to play online.

    The process needs to be incredibly simple regarding installation of mods and tracks. My group of friends who play rf1 have an average age of 50 and consume around 50 beers per night.... Explaining to these guys how to get an additional track working online will be an EPIC FAIL...
    Good point well put Frag, why over-complicate in the first place with a 3rd specific mod/track file? - Keep it simple ..mod & track & you're good to go
    Last edited by Tony; 04-28-12 at 06:17 PM.

  14. #34
    vonHai's Avatar
     

    Newer Member
    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spadge View Post
    Component version checking prior to join is A Good Thing. It was missing in rf1, and the ensuing mismatches were enough of a problem that ISI thought about how to fix it for rf2.

    So they came up with an idea that would handle it. During beta testing this idea proved not to be the solution it was hoped to be and ISI are looking at how to use what was good in the idea without the bad.

    The only things wrong with the rfmod/vmod system as it currently stands is that it is not transparent to the end user and that it limits sessions to car/track combinations for pick-up races. If I were running a league I'd be pretty happy to use the rfmod/vmod system almost exactly as it is right now.

    for a league it is good absolutely, but not if you want to insert only one car or a distance, you must write for hours mas-dats and rumschieben and this is big Bull **** what was much easier in rF and quicker and, therefore ", is also still 'topical" rF

    GoogleTrans

  15. #35
    rer8's Avatar

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    Build 90 has brought the ability to get a download of the "race" mod on the fly. What I mean is that an online player reviewing possible races may select a race, get the ubiquitous pale yellow telling him that he does not have the necessary parts to play, and if the host (I really don't know) has made the downloads available, he can download the mod. Great idea, but before you press that button you better memorize the game name because once the download is complete you are at the top of the list. Not a huge problem, but if there are 25 online races in the Brabham, it is a pain to find again. There is a glimmer of hope for the ModID process here.

    Having begun the process of learning to make a "mod" for a small group of guys who like to race together I have found the process is a little time consuming and clearly does not allow for the spontaneity of rF1, but it is doable. I can see that I may very well have 100's of these things downloaded over time. The rub here is I have no easy way of knowing precisely if the file I have is important enough to save, or no longer useful and should be discarded. It clearly will require some file reviewing on a regular basis to keep the harddrive from overload.

    Gjon, I see the direction this is going, and although I will miss being able to jump from one car mod and track, and into another car and track on the fly as I was able to in rf1, this will work, I think. Perhaps some programming genius will devise an application that we can plug in cars and tracks and build a vmod in a minute or so, and have it saved or discarded at the end of a session.

  16.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #36
    Gjon Camaj's Avatar ISI Staff

     rFactor 2 Validated 

    Quote Originally Posted by rer8 View Post
    Build 90 has brought the ability to get a download of the "race" mod on the fly. What I mean is that an online player reviewing possible races may select a race, get the ubiquitous pale yellow telling him that he does not have the necessary parts to play, and if the host (I really don't know) has made the downloads available, he can download the mod. Great idea, but before you press that button you better memorize the game name because once the download is complete you are at the top of the list. Not a huge problem, but if there are 25 online races in the Brabham, it is a pain to find again. There is a glimmer of hope for the ModID process here.
    Yea, the list shouldn't resort, something that can be fixed. However it may not be an issue as the goal is to skip the second step. You get the Server List of components and if you have all of them it should join the race for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by rer8 View Post
    Having begun the process of learning to make a "mod" for a small group of guys who like to race together I have found the process is a little time consuming and clearly does not allow for the spontaneity of rF1, but it is doable. I can see that I may very well have 100's of these things downloaded over time. The rub here is I have no easy way of knowing precisely if the file I have is important enough to save, or no longer useful and should be discarded. It clearly will require some file reviewing on a regular basis to keep the harddrive from overload.
    We are looking to add a filter feature, so these small v-mods can be hidden. As they become smaller and more numerous, we may even take the step of automatically deleting them. These files become more like internet cache than important files.

    Quote Originally Posted by rer8 View Post
    Gjon, I see the direction this is going, and although I will miss being able to jump from one car mod and track, and into another car and track on the fly as I was able to in rf1, this will work, I think. Perhaps some programming genius will devise an application that we can plug in cars and tracks and build a vmod in a minute or so, and have it saved or discarded at the end of a session.
    Building a vmod is already a couple minute process and will be improved over time. There is an example here
    http://youtu.be/KjQ_eo2zsl4 Min 1:50 to 2:50

  17. #37
    deBorgo83's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gjon Camaj View Post
    Building a vmod is already a couple minute process
    I'll vouch for that, having tried it. It's easy.

  18. #38
    rer8's Avatar

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    Gjon, thank you for your very kind response... Just noticed and have viewed the video and look forward to using the mod builder. I will get back and report on my experience once I have a little time to use the "process." Very nicely done.

    Randy

  19. #39
    rer8's Avatar

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    Finally had some time to look at the video and try out the mod builder that Gjon spoke about above. Quite correctly, Gjon said that a track and car could be placed in a "package," validated and run online. If you are only building a mod that has 1 car and several tracks, like I did, it takes about 30 to 45 seconds to accomplish. It is quick and easy. I then "hosted" a pass worded "test" game and it was posted and I was able to log into the game.

    The remaining hurdle for me is to learn how to make the mod and components available for download when the other drivers want to join the game.

  20. #40
    MarcG's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rer8 View Post
    Finally had some time to look at the video and try out the mod builder that Gjon spoke about above. Quite correctly, Gjon said that a track and car could be placed in a "package," validated and run online. If you are only building a mod that has 1 car and several tracks, like I did, it takes about 30 to 45 seconds to accomplish. It is quick and easy. I then "hosted" a pass worded "test" game and it was posted and I was able to log into the game.

    The remaining hurdle for me is to learn how to make the mod and components available for download when the other drivers want to join the game.

    all well and good for online, but a PITA for offline...or will be when theres loads more mods and tracks anyway (currently its OK). The system just needs tweaking I think before it becomes what it could be...and that's Brilliant!

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