Remove rFmod Petition

[Gjon Camaj]

my experience those complete mods are not how mods are primarily distributed or produced.

You are correct, they were primarily produce and distributed this way. I was saying most people were INTRODUCED to rFactor through complete mods. But what I what I really meant was this was the way most people were *successfully* introduced to rFactor. I can’t count how many people have told me they tried rF and really wanted to stay, but couldn’t figure it out. And these were people that tried; hunted down files, got updates, looked at the readmes, and tried to join servers.

rF1 found a process and a steady state based on its capabilities and limitations. This will happen for rF2 as well.

I am afraid my tracks will not be driven if I don't find mod creators to include my track in their mod.

People will want to race on your tracks. Leagues will take the time to include it. The few minutes it takes in creating a temporary ModID to race it with some other mod will be well worth the hours of enjoyment. When someone is done with it, they will delete the ModID from their system or keep it if they plan to make it a routine. Popular IDs will stick around.

Do we end up with beautiful tracks that end up getting raced less because we're asking too much of the normal users? That is my fear and I'm not sure if I'm willing to produce tracks if that's where we end up.

Over time, the great cars on great tracks will be the most sought after mods. The “novice” racer will become aware of these because they will be the most talked about and have the most servers online. Of course the “Yugo driving in the ISI parking lot” mod (YUG1033) will still be available as well as any combination someone may wish to try. But, because its less likely that mods will interfere with one another and they are easy to install and get rid of, I think the confusion problem people are worried about will be much less than expected.

Could you perhaps be more specific in how you think we modders should do things differently? .

It depends on your intentions. If you are producing it specifically for a league, then you want to create a season mod or update to include your track. If you want everyone to take it for a spin in SP, release it as a component, they can race any car on it. If you want people to race it online to try it out, then include one or more of the cars that will come with rFactor2 in a predefined mod. If you want people to race it online but you really think it goes perfect with some specific car series, then either get together with that car maker or release your own virtual mod including it.

[6e66o]

you could tailor rF1 to exactly how you liked it, so far rF2 seems to be a huge backward step in that direction

+1

Things i tweaked before my last online race in rf1:
cockpit textures
car sounds
cam file
track textures
...

of course none of this resulted in mismatches.


If one would like to do the same in rF2, he´d have to package all the files, get a new ID, and make sure everyone on the server uses the same components (which on a public server simply is not gonna happen)..

Bottom line,
file changes that dont have anything to do with cheating, should be handled the same way as in rF1.

Just my opinion.

[Gjon Camaj]

Things i tweaked before my last online race in rf1:
cockpit textures
car sounds
cam file
track textures

Yes these are all good candidates for a facelift mod that can sit on top on an existing one. We just haven't gotten to this part yet.

[6e66o]

We just haven't gotten to this part yet.

Good to hear it´s on the agenda

Thanks!

[ethone]

Thank you for the response Gjon. I'm not agreeing with everything but I understand where you come from better now.
I'd still prefer splitting it up into CarID and TrackID with keeping the version control of packed mods and the possibility of mods including both cars and tracks for the complete package.

[Gjon Camaj]

Thank you for the response Gjon. I'm not agreeing with everything but I understand where you come from better now.
I'd still prefer splitting it up into CarID and TrackID with keeping the version control of packed mods and the possibility of mods including both cars and tracks for the complete package.

We are not asking people to agree with everything. We are soliciting peoples experiences so we can make better choices. I will say however, with any change, there will be consequences. And since it can't be all things to all people, we might end up losing some.

The CarID/TrackID split isn't out of the question, its just not possible until components get tracked in a similar fashion.

[dano1990]

CarID and TrackID's being seperate makes perfect sense to me as i think with alot of people using this beta, Im coming from the non modding side of the community, the guys who appreciate the mods and tracks shared by the modders, and this is my personal opinion not one of the community,

rF1 was so easy to just install cars and tracks and be able to race on them, the way things are looking at the moment if a mod team produces a trackpack with their mod they include it in a package?

But say i want to use that mod using for instance the putnam park addon track i cant do so at all without creating a new modID or virtual mod for it?

But i dont want to have to do that everytime a new track comes out i want to use my favourite mod on if that makes any sense to you guys?

And then going online with it would be even harder because i then have to make sure i have exactly the same vMOD or rFm or whichever it uses (even that all gets confusing) as everyone else.

[henri200]

CarID and TrackID split would be good, but the possibility to combine them in one ID should still excist.

Is there anything being done with the mod sizes in dedicated server? With the mod sizes going up, there might not be any room left on the server . In rF1 you could just delete all the DDS files and gain a lot of room (CTDP even made a different installer for server without textures, which was nice), but with rF2 it's impossible at the moment. Even though it's not the most important thing, then it would be nice if there would be possibility for smaller rFMOD for servers.

[NightSt@lk3r]

People will want to race on your tracks. Leagues will take the time to include it. The few minutes it takes in creating a temporary ModID to race it with some other mod will be well worth the hours of enjoyment. When someone is done with it, they will delete the ModID from their system or keep it if they plan to make it a routine. Popular IDs will stick around.

This makes pickup racing in the matchmaker a hell hole, as with rf1 you will have tons of servers running "vehicle mod a", but no 2 servers ever have the same track cycle running, so with your system im going to have to hunt down and find the rfmod for each server i want to randomly join.

How is this making it easier for average joe as you say you are trying too?

[MarcG]

The CarID/TrackID split isn't out of the question, its just not possible until components get tracked in a similar fashion.

this is the Biggy as far as I'm concerned, why the need to tie Tracks with Mods? having to ask Mod Teams to include your track is a bit silly IMO, the good tracks get filtered out eventually anyway, so having them seperate (plus a way to incorporate them into exisiting Mods as mentioned) is surely the best way to get them out there and usable.

Otherwise you'd end up with Track Makers who cant be bothered to ask for acceptance into a Mod and Mod teams trying to contact Track Makers that have gone AWOL for 6months so you cant use their great track in your great mod anyway....major hitch there eh!?

[Gjon Camaj]

But say i want to use that mod using for instance the putnam park addon track i cant do so at all without creating a new modID or virtual mod for it? But i dont want to have to do that everytime a new track comes out i want to use my favourite mod on if that makes any sense to you guys?

No, you can race any car on any track without doing anything for single player. If you want to race online, get the ModID of the race you wish to join.

And then going online with it would be even harder because i then have to make sure i have exactly the same vMOD or rFm or whichever it uses (even that all gets confusing) as everyone else.

No, as someone joining a race, it will be easier. Making sure you have the right ModID is certainly easier then hunting down all the pieces and guessing if you have the updates finding out for sure only after you loaded the track or the race switched circuits on you.

If you commonly host races or own a League and want to drive some combination that doesn’t already exist, then you will be responsible for creating the ModID.

[Jim Beam]

we have a saying in Australia ..maybe its worldwide i dont know...but its called the K.I.S.S method of doing things (Keep It Simple Stupid)...this is how rFactor architecture was and was why it was such a great game for modders/leagues

@Gjon you say that mismatches were a big problem..this doesnt solve that problem...you still have mismatches only they happen in the lobby now instead of the server room and the lobby wont let you join if you have a mismatch...and people will still be chasing these rfmod files all over the internet in the same way they chase files of rF1...except now they might have the content installed but need different virtual rfmods to join different rooms

this also takes away any spontaneous racing...there will be no more of someone saying lets race "mod/track" and 2 mins later its on the server and racing if a rfmod needs to be created..

this also doesnt allow the checking of files before you install them to your game proper...you have to install to find out theres a mistake with a mod..and if someone wanted to be nasty as an example they could make a package with exactly the same naming as the renaults except call it 1.2 post it up on the internet and cause all sorts of grief...destroying a modders or league websites credibility in seconds

i have more "against it" reasons but have to get ready for work lol

cheers

[Gjon Camaj]

CarID and TrackID split would be good, but the possibility to combine them in one ID should still excist.

Is there anything being done with the mod sizes in dedicated server? With the mod sizes going up, there might not be any room left on the server . In rF1 you could just delete all the DDS files and gain a lot of room (CTDP even made a different installer for server without textures, which was nice), but with rF2 it's impossible at the moment. Even though it's not the most important thing, then it would be nice if there would be possibility for smaller rFMOD for servers.

Yea server mods is a good idea.

[Gjon Camaj]

This makes pickup racing in the matchmaker a hell hole, as with rf1 you will have tons of servers running "vehicle mod a", but no 2 servers ever have the same track cycle running, so with your system im going to have to hunt down and find the rfmod for each server i want to randomly join.

How is this making it easier for average joe as you say you are trying too?

If someone is willing to put in the time and is adapt at downloading and installing these tons of mods, then I don't think finding a small virtual mod is going to be the limiting factor to them joining a server.

If this specific scenario really becomes what prevents people from joining races, then we would look into grabbing the ModIDs right from the servers.

[jtbo]

I'm thinking that .rfmod extension should be registered to mod manager and when average joe downloads a mod and double clicks that .rfmod file mod manager would start up and asks would you like to install mod XXX, when user clicks yes, mod manager copies .rfmod to correct location and does installation of mod.

This way there would be one hurdle less and coding those extra functions would not be very difficult at least from my understanding, but then again I'm just newbie C# user.

To make mod hunt easier there could be done so that when packaging virtual mod or mod that is going to be used online, one would input web address where mod is shared, so when average joe is at lobby and sees interesting server it could give him link where to download the file needed, it would be only one feature more in packager, and lobby/server, but it would make big help to that average joe.

It would be kind of streamlining and refining the experience, it would give impression of product that is well thought and foreplanned.

I think that it would not take quite many hours to add those features and those probably would bring investement of time back by increased sales, but then again I'm not much of business man, I'm just a teacher in computer technology and sales.

[kleanphil]

well i'm a bit dissapointed i must say.I was under the impression that all files would be stored on a central data base,and that eventually every file will have its own ID inluding mass files and plugins skinpacks ect and my impression was you simply click a server and automaticly check the server for tracks, mods ect needed and retrieve them,ensuring only the nessesary file is downloaded.This way only one file will be stored instead for eg a full v1 track and a full v1.1 ,only the mass file associated with the update is needed to be downloaded.Also handled this way it insures all file automaticly go to packages.Unless done this way i struggle to see at this point how this is much less confusing.The game should be as easy as simply clicking a server and getting what you need ,no searching and no trying work out where things go for novices. Allready i see posts from people confused allready with the simple thing such as how do i get the rfmod to packages to which someone replied with a link to a tutorial on copy/paste,as funny as that was it shows that the game has a long way to go before its fool proof.

When EAO moved from Toca 3 , a simple pc based game i literaly spent the first 3 or 4 months helping members set up there game and teach them about where **** is on there pc,as well as the multytude of people ive helped in the lobby, I DO NOT WANT THIS EXPERIENCE IN RF2

I do realise that some people may want to host there own files therefore getting traffic on there site but a simple url redirect to your site while the files are being downloaded should be possible

[Gjon Camaj]

this is the Biggy as far as I'm concerned, why the need to tie Tracks with Mods? having to ask Mod Teams to include your track is a bit silly IMO, the good tracks get filtered out eventually anyway, so having them seperate (plus a way to incorporate them into exisiting Mods as mentioned) is surely the best way to get them out there and usable.

Otherwise you'd end up with Track Makers who cant be bothered to ask for acceptance into a Mod and Mod teams trying to contact Track Makers that have gone AWOL for 6months so you cant use their great track in your great mod anyway....major hitch there eh!?

Nobody is requiring track and car makers to work together. The need isn't to tie tracks and cars together but rather pre-specify what content someone will need to successful race on a given server.

[MaD_King]

Nobody is requiring track and car makers to work together. The need isn't to tie tracks and cars together but rather pre-specify what content someone will need to successful race on a given server.

But your current packaging system force this, so you need to tie tracks and cars together at this time to get a valid mod for the online.

On our Modding team side we test our mods online to valid physics developments, so we are forced to make a modid to test our evolutions, so the "Single player without package" in the devmod part have no sense for us, it's just a short part of our development process, the huge part is online.

[shum94]

So we're gona end up having :

Putnam Park GT rcfm
Putnam Park OW rcfm

then a new gt mod is out =

Putnam Park GT 2.0 rcfm

I don't see how it ease the experience.
A lobby with clean & clear layout with lot of infos with servers links to how to get the content is much better.
I remember allowing mismatches on my server and forwarding people to the right place to get it.

[NightSt@lk3r]

If someone is willing to put in the time and is adapt at downloading and installing these tons of mods, then I don't think finding a small virtual mod is going to be the limiting factor to them joining a server.

If this specific scenario really becomes what prevents people from joining races, then we would look into grabbing the ModIDs right from the servers.

Well it will certainly prevent me from doing anymore pickup racing in the matchmaker(which i am paying a yearly fee for!), with rf1 i can just fire up the game pick a random server and click join, with this new system im going to have to fire up the game find a server, goto their website and download the modid for the server, install the modid then go back to the game and by this time the server is full, rinse and repeat.

I am looking at this from a user and a modders point of view, and i cant see how this makes it easier to manage for either.