FFB in real life VS current sims

[K Szczech]

It's amazing. Make a long post about garbage and all the "experts" here in the ISI forums will come out and nod their heads in agreement.

Only those who read the post and understood it

Now seriously - no matter what forum or what sim it's about, there will always be people discussing things, have different opinions or people that are simply mistaken or wrong about something.
They are not the problem.
People who laugh at or disrespect others for being wrong are the problem.

[Crash]

do you just try to look smart in sim racing forums?

You suggesting instead of looking smart, they should try to look like you instead?


Here's a thought, if you don't agree with what someone has posted - try constructively putting your own point across, with some rationale/explanation on how you got your opinion and with a modicum of respect, thats what mature people do in a discussion

[PLAYLIFE]

It's amazing. Make a long post about garbage and all the "experts" here in the ISI forums will come out and nod their heads in agreement. Do any of you actually sim race or do you just try to look smart in sim racing forums?

Can you provide a bit more detail about what you're talking about. Which post? Why is it garbage? Who said they were experts?

Why would anyone post on a forum, to people they don't know, about a computer game, to 'look smart' anyway?

[PRLamers]

To me, a very important aspect of the initial post to this thread is the lack proper FFB for understeer in games. I too am fortunate enough to have raced real racecars on a circuit and when you understeer you feel this in your wheel (and the whole car for that matter) when the tyres lose grip (sort of 'smooth' rumble). You feel that the attachment to the track is gone. I have never experienced this (also not in rF1) in a racing game in the FFB. Same with the steering moving away from you in an oversteer situation. Never properly modelled before.

I would think it would be possible to simulate this a lot better with the current FFB wheels. Tim, can you confirm that this has been an important improvement area for rF2. I think a lot of immersion can be won here!

[Noel Hibbard]

I have to disagree about the wheel getting stiffer as the car begins to push. This is totally wrong. If you push the front wheels past the threshold the wheel will become almost completely limp. He is right about oversteer though. rF1 with RealFeel does all of this correctly.

I also see the point CdnRacer is trying to make. Although not being very graceful about it. I think what he is getting at is in real life you rely very little on the feel in the wheel. It is mostly in your ass (gforces) and your eyes. Power steering masks most of the forces you get in the wheel anyways. I think what his point is, is that you have to exaggerate the forces in the wheel (such as self aligning torque when oversteering) to compensate for the lack of gforces. So when he says FFB shouldn't be realistic, he means it shouldn't be nub (power steering), it should exaggerated.

I personally feel that RealFeel is realistic... just with a smaller dynamic range then real life.

BTW, I am 15 and have a lot of experience driving power wheels on a track (Er.. sidewalk), so I know what I am talking about. :P

[ajk]

Real car is driven with 80% a** and 20% hands.

In sims you drive with your eyes, hands and you also have to trust a lot more to your ears. As you cannot feel the point tyre starting to go over its limit, you need to hear it (scrub/skid sound).

FFB wheel could perhaps substitute a real wheel feedback fairly well but imho it has to deliver more information than that as you do not get thast feedback elsewhere. Perhaps this is not to debate here now but in this sense I agree with rci808.

[Noel Hibbard]

As you cannot feel the point tyre starting to go over its limit, you need to hear it (scrub/skid sound).

But see, even this isn't entirely realistic. DOT-Rs hardly even make noise let alone full on race tires. But again, back to CdnRacers point. We have to compensate a little in sims. That's just the way it is. No way around it.

[blakboks]

Even in an ideal sim environment with a 100% realistic, 0% exaggerated ffb (wheel torque only) wouldn't feel exactly like even a drive-by-wire steering system, because it wont transmit the vibrations propegated through the chassis, let alone the centripetal forces acting on your arms trying to rip your hands off the wheel.

[LesiU]

Noel, all tyres make noise Don't believe me? Go to any race track during race weekend and pray for a spinning race car.
The only thing is - when driving fast, you don't want to be in the point when tyres start to scream... that means, you are overdoing them.
With road tyres it is exactly the same (just an example - watch Top Gear where Rowan Atkinson, aka Mr. Bean, did fastest lap ever... and it looked like he was soo slooow...) but road tyre characteristics, beeing very forgiving, allow you to go past the optimal grip zone, start scream and still provide good levels of grip (they are safe in that matter).
Race tyres have more aggressive characteristics, so if you abuse them you will loose much more grip.

[Noel Hibbard]

Sure, if you push them WAY beyond the limit (as in 4 wheel slide) they will make sound. But keep in mind that the sound in the cockpit is much different then being a spectator. When you are in a car with no interior or any sound detonation, all you hear is engine sound and rocks and crap flying off the tires and hitting the car. I am only referring to DOT-R and race tires. Street tires is a different story. I also understand the sharp slip curves of a race tires. I have a set on my barbie power wheels car.

My point is have tire noise like for example HistorX is very unrealistic. Then you have mods like ES that have silent tires (in the cockpit) which is realistic but not practical for a sim. The only way to detect lockup in a sim is from head physics (which most people disable) and tire sounds. I vote for the unrealistic tire sounds of HistorX over the realistic tire sounds of ES.

[Pandamasque]

Let us not forget how much louder race cars are. It's only in iRacing the tyre scrubbing and wind noise is louder than LS7.R :P

[LesiU]

@Noel
In pure race car, without upholstery and with open exhaust - you are right, no chance to hear tyres (I mean, you will hear them when you are already spinning) but in less modified cars you will hear them (although there is another factor - your helmet muffling all sounds) when around the limit. For sure, such sounds are hearable in the cockpit. I don't have first hand experience but saw some onboards and onboard cam could easily pick up tyre sounds.

I think the best way is to be able to slightly hear them through other sounds when you are around the limit. The more you push tyres in rF the louder their sounds are so with that dialed in correctly, you should be able drive nicely within tyre limit.
That's one of those things when you just can go like "must be 100% realistic".

EDIT:
Yeah, that's funny but at least you can control the car just by tire sound ;-)


EDIT2:


Actually, you can hear slight low pitched noise when around the optimal grip, before tires become more noisy (Michelin PS Cup tyres, so sort of a threaded medium slick compound).
But that's of course road GT3, so we can hear tyres and other road sounds without problem.
And in theory, that kind of sound pitch gradation can be done in rF 1 but I'm not sure will it work as should.

[Dave Millard]

BTW, I am 15 and have a lot of experience driving power wheels on a track (Er.. sidewalk), so I know what I am talking about. :P

You is a funny guy Noel...wink wink

[Noel Hibbard]

You is a funny guy Noel...wink wink

Hehe. You like that?

Did you see my post about Dave Berman on the SRRS and efnet#cars forums? He is under hospice care now. So sad.

[Dave Millard]

Damn Noel, that's a shame.

[CdnRacer]

I have to disagree about the wheel getting stiffer as the car begins to push. This is totally wrong. If you push the front wheels past the threshold the wheel will become almost completely limp. He is right about oversteer though. rF1 with RealFeel does all of this correctly.

I also see the point CdnRacer is trying to make. Although not being very graceful about it. I think what he is getting at is in real life you rely very little on the feel in the wheel. It is mostly in your ass (gforces) and your eyes. Power steering masks most of the forces you get in the wheel anyways. I think what his point is, is that you have to exaggerate the forces in the wheel (such as self aligning torque when oversteering) to compensate for the lack of gforces. So when he says FFB shouldn't be realistic, he means it shouldn't be nub (power steering), it should exaggerated.

I personally feel that RealFeel is realistic... just with a smaller dynamic range then real life.

BTW, I am 15 and have a lot of experience driving power wheels on a track (Er.. sidewalk), so I know what I am talking about. :P

Well now that's two who get it, will there be three?

[John]

Well now that's two who get it, will there be three?

Yeah mate - I got it too. FFB in the game wheel HAS to compensate for the feel a driver gets from the entire car. I very clearly understood your point about not wanting realistic FFB - I also do not want to be limited to just steering forces. Without a motion simulator to tell me what the car is doing, I need the wheel to give me this information.

I think a couple of the guys that have been arguing with you have basically just not understood the terminology or just miss-interpreted your viewpoint. Perhaps assuming the opposite to what you are saying. The English language can be an ass sometimes, what with cultural differences, translation errors and so on, which is probably responsible for innumerate internet wars.

[PLAYLIFE]

Well now that's two who get it, will there be three?

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant.

[shum94]

I would not imagine using the curbs too much and not feel something about it.

It's basic, you touch something, you feel it > it moves your direction > you correct it.

FFB is about that, any simracer who runs without ffb isnt a true one. You won't be able to go to the limit if you dont sense the g force in your wheel and react about it.

Finally in rF1 ffb steermult i believe had to be on 6.0 or it was a mod for kids imo.
Hopefully every mod in rF2 will do what some mods did in rF1 offering different steer mult in upgrade menu.

[Lazza]

Finally in rF1 ffb steermult i believe had to be on 6.0 or it was a mod for kids imo.

It does depend on the mod a fair bit, but you're also risking clipping by running very high forces - so in a high-load situation you might not feel a reduction (or increase) in force that you would in real life because your wheel is already at full force and stays there. Scale it back (while keeping it linear) and you only get a decent force at high loads, while at low speed you can barely feel anything.

Logarithmic scaling helps this, by keeping 'low' forces at a decent level, but then you lose a lot of the dynamic when you encounter sudden higher forces (the difference isn't as great as it should be), so then you start making it much more dynamic, so a low->medium transition results in medium->high FFB, which then scales back a bit ready for any following transition, but then you're moving farther away from reality... but anyway, as with any simulation you just have to do your best with what you have - and unfortunately (or not ) our wheels can't transmit real life forces.