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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: RF2 over LAN?

  1. #201
    SeKa's Avatar
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazza View Post
    rFactor is still available (getting cheaper apparently) so people can continue to use it to their heart's content. rF2 works differently.

    It's so easy to say that because you only buy things when you want them - you don't buy a cheap car and then complain it doesn't have all the latest safety features and 600HP. If ISI has chosen to change the licensing system they have a reason for it (we could speculate, but who really knows, and some things we can't talk about for obvious reasons), so either you support them with it or you decide you don't like it and go without - stick to rF1 or maybe move to something else. They can't please everyone and they're not trying to - they're looking out for themselves, which I think is a better option than possibly continuing to lose money (assuming they are, and that's a reason for the change) and disappearing in 3 years.

    It's not about the money, I know, everyone keeps saying that, it's probably more about having to 'phone home' to do any online. And that's a change from rF1, and maybe a lot of people have to factor that into how they do things, and maybe a minority will technically find it very difficult to use rF2 for the things they use rF1 for - but people on dialup connections could race in rF1, and might not be able to in rF2, so things move on. If you are unable or unwilling to move to rF2, don't.
    You missed the point of the whole discussion here. People coming in with rF, with understanding ISIs concept at this way. Now the concept is changing, it is not the difference rF to rF2. The rFactor community is more than a game, and more than x,y% + profit. Sure, im with anyone who says ISI have to look out for themself, but this deal is beginning with a big social component started from ISI. This makes a lot difference. Think about how many driver and modder are involved and organized in leagues. They have their friendships, and the habit how does it all work with rFactor. Is that so easy to say take it, or leave it? Think about how long its taking until the community believe and understand rFactor. And now, most involved person are shocked because "the mind and understanding" of rFactor is changed absolutely with this one point, and over night. rFactor is starting as Sim Game as part of ISI products. Now it is a part of the rFactor community after 6 years. This is a long time for a game, and for a community. You can name it rf2 or 3 or anything else, doesnt matter. Put more simply, in my opinion ISI have to respect and to bill this point, because it may be essentially for the future. This is a (legitimate) subject for debate, - sometimes with parts as in ISI shoes. It is not only ISI interest, it is the interest of us all too.

    Sry about my english

  2. #202
    Saabjock's Avatar

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    I like this marketing method. It also represents a great bargain as well. Remember... not only will you be getting matchmaker service, you'll also be getting new updated content for the $13 dollars. Who here really expects the guys at ISI.. (who still have to pay the cost of doing business) i.e rent space, pay salaries, write software code, etc.. to just sit down, update the sim and then give it to them for free every year? Let's be reasonable.
    Stop whining and know a good deal when it hits you 'smack' in the face.
    This pay 'model' is far from iRacing. They charge for every single thing they release.
    ISI could have come out every year with this same game, recycled with these addons at full price. I can almost guarantee the same guys complaining now, would have been here 'licking their chops' (money in-hand) complaining that it was taking too long.
    The end result is that they'd be paying more for what they perceive as a NEW full priced game. I'd probably be at least $50-60.
    Look at F1 2010 and F1 2011. That's the best example of what I'm talking about. Did they get a break from Codemasters? No. They got updates...at full price. Has anyone played F1 2010 since F1 2011 was released? Probably not. There is no benefit from buying a new game at full price every year? Absolutely none. Look at this for what it is... the ability to get better, updated content each and every year as ISI strives to perfect the existing simulation.
    Last edited by Saabjock; 01-29-12 at 08:08 PM.

  3. #203
    SeKa's Avatar
     

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    Ok, the commercial efficiency have to be proofed after a year on current updated content. This is up only to ISI. You may be right, also you can be wrong. Nobody knows. This is why i said, the point is not the money for next years, because now the meanings and feelings are important. The interest of community, leagues, modders etc. are not buildable every year again and again...

  4. #204
    JoshJ81's Avatar
     

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    Soooooooo.....this whole topic really leads me to just one question....When is rFactor 2 going to be released so we can finally see what ISI mean and we can all get back to racing in the 21st Century?

    hehe like that poor attempt at resurrecting the most hated community question in world? hehe I thought it was funny :P

    On a more serious note, I am worried about the release. I have mods to mod and a league to run...and with our season beginning in March, I fear rFactor 2 will not be out in time and I will start to lose interest of my follow drivers. I'm by far not asking that rFactor 2 be released by a certain time, not at all. I fully understand programming takes time (our 2011 was almost delayed because of unforeseen problem at the very end). I just would like to know so I can know if my work for our 2012 mod will be for rf1 or 2. If its going to be on rF2, I'd like to know if the work will convert over to rF2 and if not, figure out the things (for models, physics, and tires) I need to do to make it work...all of this will take time. Time is ticking away and mods do not just fall out of the sky at the drop of a dime. I'd just like to have some kind of GOOD answer so I can make a better decision on the mod/sim we are using, stick with rf1 a little longer or will I have enough time to get rF2 league ready?

    PS, AGAIN don't beat up the question as I'm not asking ISI to rush or anything.

  5. #205
    LesiU's Avatar

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    My advice is - "forget" rF 2 and focus on rF 1 for your 2012 season.
    I'm pretty sure rF 2 will have some bugs and things which need improvement. Also, there won't be much content to start with so I can't imagine how some would use such "unstable" platform for a full year league.
    Go one more year with rF 1 and only do test funraces with rF 2. I think that's the safest way to still keep community happy while don't get into much trouble with new platform.

  6. #206
    Noel Hibbard's Avatar

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    rF2 will still be open and community driven. $13 a year isn't going to run anyone off. I would like to think that everyone paying $13 a year would bring in enough money to keep ISI motivated to continue development of rF2 unlike what we had with rF1 and all the bugs and stability problems it had. But $13 a year will probably just break even with the server/bandwidth costs for providing the new service. Time will tell. But I really think people are over reacting when they say the community will dissolve. What other truly open platforms are there? I like how the_last_name_left put it... Would you rather pay CodeMasters every year for a closed platform?

  7. #207
    SeKa's Avatar
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshJ81 View Post
    ...

    On a more serious note, I am worried about the release. I have mods to mod and a league to run...and with our season beginning in March, I fear rFactor 2 will not be out in time and I will start to lose interest of my follow drivers. ...
    One fact more, thats concerns me and many others also. just as if my drivers are willing to move to rF2

  8. #208
    Noel Hibbard's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uff View Post
    As it's already been said, without using MM you wouldn't be able to use LAN at all. So... is it better to have a proper online service, with less pirated copies of the game, less mismatches and so on or would it be better to have the same mess we have in rF1 and not being able to run online anymore due to the huge fragmentation of the community?
    Yeah just think about how much better rF Rank could be if all tracks had unique IDs.

  9. #209
    lordpantsington's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Hibbard View Post
    $13 a year isn't going to run anyone off.

    I think in relation to this, generalizations should not be made. It only takes one to show the statement is not true. I know of one person that for sure will not be purchasing rf because of the subscription. I know of at least 5 others on the bubble because of it.

  10. #210
    the_last_name_left's Avatar
     

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    Once it comes out peeps will buy it. The sub doesn't become an issue until 12 months later, and by then it'll seem a trifle. IMO.

  11. #211
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    I was wondering where do I sign up and pay for the beta of rF2. I'd love to help give feedback as a modder and admin in the dirt sim community. If there's any more info at this time as to where and how to obtain the beta, could you please pass it along or direct me to the appropriate place to find such info. Thanks.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_last_name_left View Post
    Once it comes out peeps will buy it. The sub doesn't become an issue until 12 months later, and by then it'll seem a trifle. IMO.
    This.

  13. #213
    Lazza's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by dingdingbraa View Post
    I was wondering where do I sign up and pay for the beta of rF2. I'd love to help give feedback as a modder and admin in the dirt sim community. If there's any more info at this time as to where and how to obtain the beta, could you please pass it along or direct me to the appropriate place to find such info. Thanks.
    When the open beta is released it'll be announced on here, ISI's site, and unless you're living under a rock at the time I think you'll find it hard not to know about it There's no 'sign up' or anything... it'll be released, and we'll be able to buy it.

  14. #214
    dingdingbraa's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazza View Post
    When the open beta is released it'll be announced on here, ISI's site, and unless you're living under a rock at the time I think you'll find it hard not to know about it There's no 'sign up' or anything... it'll be released, and we'll be able to buy it.
    Thanks Lazza. Wasn't sure if it was released and it was a secret or private invite, or if it hasn't been released yet. Reading Tim's mention of it, it doesn't really clarify.

  15. #215
    Lazza's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by dingdingbraa View Post
    Reading Tim's mention of it, it doesn't really clarify.
    Yeah, stuff is buried everywhere, so unless you're here keeping up with it daily it's easy to lose track

    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.ph...ll=1#post16678

  16. #216
    JoshJ81's Avatar
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by LesiU View Post
    My advice is - "forget" rF 2 and focus on rF 1 for your 2012 season.
    I'm pretty sure rF 2 will have some bugs and things which need improvement. Also, there won't be much content to start with so I can't imagine how some would use such "unstable" platform for a full year league.
    Go one more year with rF 1 and only do test funraces with rF 2. I think that's the safest way to still keep community happy while don't get into much trouble with new platform.
    ...yeah sadly this is looking like the route we will need to take...As much as I want to believe rF2 (full version) will be out sometime in Dec., I don't think it will happen... If nothing by January then we will have to start off with rF1 again...not a big deal but kind of heart breaking. But in the end when rF2 does come out, it will be worth it, I'm sure of it. When it does, I think this will be the one time everyone in our league will not mind making a big switch in the middle of the season, it will certainly spice up things for the points

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshJ81 View Post
    ...yeah sadly this is looking like the route we will need to take...As much as I want to believe rF2 (full version) will be out sometime in Dec., I don't think it will happen... If nothing by January then we will have to start off with rF1 again...not a big deal but kind of heart breaking. But in the end when rF2 does come out, it will be worth it, I'm sure of it. When it does, I think this will be the one time everyone in our league will not mind making a big switch in the middle of the season, it will certainly spice up things for the points
    Remembering too, will the content that is released with rF2 be enough for your leagues? Assuming no MODS for release from teams for at least a month...

    I am waiting for the BETA to see if our LAN's next year will be content with just that...ORRR do we run a mixture of rF1 and rF2??

    Who knows...at this point I am putting ALL my eggs into the rF1 basket untill rF2 gets here, than I might be able to retire and old rooster for a new Hen House Leader or have the Old Rooster teach the young one for a while until its ready to take over? *shrugs*...

    I guess we wait and see...

    Hmm...not sure what I am on with the barnyard going on up there...

  18. #218
    Lazza's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordpantsington View Post
    I think in relation to this, generalizations should not be made. It only takes one to show the statement is not true. I know of one person that for sure will not be purchasing rf because of the subscription. I know of at least 5 others on the bubble because of it.
    I'm assuming that since Noel focused on the $13 we're talking money here, rather than the 'phone home' aspect? If so, and no disrespect intended, but I have to wonder what anyone worried about $44 plus $13 per year (after a year) was expecting for rF2.

    I think I jumped on the rFactor bandwagon relatively late (maybe 18 months after release) and paid $55 for it. That's lasted me 5 years, and even if it had only been a year ago I still would have been happy to pay that amount for a year's quality racing and an insane number of mods & tracks.

    Now, rF2 is obviously a step up, and while people might suggest the graphics aren't absolutely 'up there' with other titles, neither was rF1 even when it was released, so that's no issue for me. There's licensed content, with more on the way, so if anything I would have expected a price jump, maybe $70, maybe more. Now it turns out that $70 will last me 3 years all up (3.5 including the open beta). At that point, 3 years in, with tens/hundreds more mods, a number of them in specialised areas and really top quality, would I mind paying $13 a year? When people who like keeping up with games (I'm not one of them) will buy 4-5 games a year, totalling maybe $3-400, and probably arrive at about the same total hours gametime as I will? Erm... no

    And all this really ignores the absolute bargain rF1 was, so using it as a base is probably unrealistic anyway.

    The kicker is: if something goes wrong, if the open beta / initial release turns out to be crap, if mod development goes nowhere, if ISI 'goes bust' - all I'm losing is $44. Compare that to some other titles...

  19. #219
    Chip's Avatar
     

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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazza View Post
    I'm assuming that since Noel focused on the $13 we're talking money here, rather than the 'phone home' aspect? If so, and no disrespect intended, but I have to wonder what anyone worried about $44 plus $13 per year (after a year) was expecting for rF2.
    Many like yourself fail to see the big picture. With $13 you would be paying for something that already should be included without subscription. That's called crippleware and is a really bad business practice. It's like buying a water bottle and then having to pay a yearly subscription if you want to fill it with juice instead of water. It would seem totally ridiculous to you. And it is the same with rF2 when you'll have to pay for playing over LAN. The devs have no solid excuse for that 'feature'.

    And the real point of this system is that you will simply have to pay more if you want to use the title in a normal way. Let's say you will buy the game and use it for approximately 6 years (as old as rF2 is today). That would mean you have to pay $44 retail price + 5x $13 = $109. That's the REAL cost of the game they're masking so it would seem less to us.

    The proper way of generating revenue would be to ADD BONUS CONTENT for subscribers. Like including LIDAR tracks, new vehicles, perhaps working out some discount for certain game gear. It is by REWARDING the subscribers, not PUNISHING unsubscribers. It amazes me that so few can grasp this simple concept. Tell me, would you rather buy at a store that has friendly and helpful staff that treat you well and often give you discounts? Or would you rather buy at a store that has cameras all over the place, nasty-looking security guards and no discounts ever? Think about that.

    P.S.: The 'phone home' itself is totally ridiculous, too. It only makes trouble for legitimate users as was already demonstrated by numerous titles with such idiotic DRM.
    Lublana je najlepa, me ne zanima kok stane, ne?

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Many like yourself fail to see the big picture. With $13 you would be paying for something that already should be included without subscription. That's called crippleware and is a really bad business practice. It's like buying a water bottle and then having to pay a yearly subscription if you want to fill it with juice instead of water. It would seem totally ridiculous to you. And it is the same with rF2 when you'll have to pay for playing over LAN. The devs have no solid excuse for that 'feature'.
    Lazza can defend himself, but I am sure he is fully appreciative of the full picture .... that picture is a different picture / view to other's. The rF2 pricing model ISI have poorly communicated initially [calling it as I saw it ISI] and we have poured plently of gas on [calling it as ?I see it] is also a successful business practice. Where the base product is valuable to the consumer ... they will continue to return. iRacing do it on a monthly basis with also more tie in and restrictions. The inkjet printing model work where there is no fixed renewal .... just buy a new cartridge when you need it. Nespresso took that model to the coffee.

    Before anyone states the obvious, Yes, each model I've given is different in details but they all play on the same idea ... if the product or service is valuable, people will come back for more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    And the real point of this system is that you will simply have to pay more if you want to use the title in a normal way. Let's say you will buy the game and use it for approximately 6 years (as old as rF2 is today). That would mean you have to pay $44 retail price + 5x $13 = $109. That's the REAL cost of the game they're masking so it would seem less to us.
    None is under any illusion about the cost of the game. Everyone can do that simple calculation and make their decision. There's no masking going on here. You'll have to accept this and focus on your above argument more ... it has more legs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    The proper way of generating revenue would be to ADD BONUS CONTENT for subscribers. Like including LIDAR tracks, new vehicles, perhaps working out some discount for certain game gear. It is by REWARDING the subscribers, not PUNISHING unsubscribers. It amazes me that so few can grasp this simple concept. Tell me, would you rather buy at a store that has friendly and helpful staff that treat you well and often give you discounts? Or would you rather buy at a store that has cameras all over the place, nasty-looking security guards and no discounts ever? Think about that.
    There has been a message from ISI what development and updates will continue to be released for rF2. Meat on that bone may be light now so we'll have to wait and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    P.S.: The 'phone home' itself is totally ridiculous, too. It only makes trouble for legitimate users as was already demonstrated by numerous titles with such idiotic DRM.
    You have a point of view that is shared by many. I don't entirely disagree with all you've written above either by the way. What is the status on the LAN question by the way?

    I am hopeful the lifetime membership option can be realized as I dislike [all] subscription systems. Worst case, I can accept a 12 month renewal option because I am sure it will be a worthwhile money spend.

    The change with rF1's model obviously is noticed and generation thread length. It must be said that ISI are showing signs that they are listening to this feedback also which is a lot more that other dev houses have done in the past!
    Last edited by theother5; 11-15-11 at 05:08 AM.

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