rFactor 2 WIP - Sun glare

[David G Fisher]

Pointing to photographs and videos, and then comparing what you see in them to the graphics in rF2 or any sim is pointless. rF2 should replicate what the human eye sees, not what a machine records. If I have to begin to explain why...... As for the screenshot MaXyM posted above, the actual in game graphics of that game do not look like that.

[Carbonfibre]

If we're talking about graphics, it might be worth everybody skipping through the BF3 tech videos.
If not for the game, but for an understanding of what sort of technology and terminology programmers are using today.







So rF2 is DX9 (unfortunately, for the sake of optimizations -not effects) and BF3 is DX10/11, but there's still a lot of modern features and optimizations gMotor could really use in future.

[feels3]

Could you guys get back on topic and talk about rFactor 2 - Sun glare??!!

[ZeosPantera]

lol. I'm curious what does photo-realistic mean to you.

When someone in the art world and not the gaming world talks about something being photo-realistic.. They are saying the artwork looks so real it could be a photo of a real place. Video games compare closer to an artist's interpretation of the real world then a photographer's photograph.

This is photo-realistic.

(Oil Painting on Linen by Ralph Goings) You can't tell the difference from a real photo and nothing is exaggerated.

Could you guys get back on topic and talk about rFactor 2 - Sun glare??!!

Video of it going behind objects. Preferably with HDR. Maybe popping out through the clouds? If the weather is random that should be a possible scenario.

[Domi]

lol. I'm curious what does photo-realistic mean to you. Especially comparing to rF.
Indeed, thera are plenty overdone post-processing effects in-game. But you may find those also in some movies. So... this graphics is photo-realistic. Or at least closest to how things look in RL than rF/rF2 can do.

Since Shift2 has unrealistic graphics, I would like to see such one in rF2, at least with such "unrealistic" quality.

This is photo-realism for me :

http://www.racing-patch.com/2011/01/...s-virtual.html

And like you said NFS has plenty of overdone post-processing effects and filters, classic from other modern videogames. But that's not what I want to see in a racing game, I prefer to see what a driver see, nothing more. For example for me the asphalt textures from that game are horrible.

[Tim Wheatley]

Yeah.. and because you are saying it is not easy or cannot be done - means you are right.

Check TM2, F1 2010/2011, CARS. All they are looking more real then rF2 on WIP materials. That's why I was said: It can be done.

Under one condition: a programmer does understand how light works IRL. Most of them don't, trying to use trick over trick.
Want an example? OK, check all sims and answer why all braking zones are deep black colored. Then go onto racing circuit or even on a street and check how it looks looking from various directions. Curious is, there is no one sim provides correct representation of this effect (excepting of rF1 with custom shaders by KSzczech). Even new titles got wrong approach to this, trying to reflect sun/sky against single skids - which is of course misunderstanding of the effect.

I hate fanboism doesn't matter to what subject is related. iR or rF - doesn't matter. I'm happy waiting for better rfactor, but I cannot agree with hype reaction on every thing added to the title if it is made wrong or give outdated result yet before release.

Are you a fanboy? Or, an anti-fanboy? Because I actually see more totally one-sided comments out of you than anybody.

You see, this is the problem. As much as you say other are giving totally positive feedback, you spend ALL your time telling them wrong they are. Aren't you doing the same thing as those you have a problem with?

I believe you may be confusing sun glare with lens flare in-part. I saw lens flare in a drivers-eye cockpit screenshot posted of one of those titles you mentioned. I just thought I would point out that the human eye does not experience lens flare.

One thing you are right about, in part, is that effects can be done (I say in-part because NOBODY is doing what we are all in one software - in a simulation). Usually those effects are seen after they've been developed. Have you noticed anything we keep putting on the screenshots we release? I think you are massively, MASSIVELY, underestimating the difficulty of developing graphics for the dawn, day, dusk and night which CHANGE. I also saw you thought we should be contacting someone from the community for help? Really? You don't think we'd want to get ours working first?

I have to say that if you can't accept that people have different point of views, (and I'm not just talking about you, although in this specific thread I certainly am), then I'll just post things into closed threads, or not at all. And then simply remove any threads discussing it so you can do your arguing on someone else's forum.

And absolutely keep the personal comments out of it, because then when those posts get reported, we have to decide whether to let it slide (which we have with pretty much everything so far) or impose some kind of access limitation to the forum.

[Tim Wheatley]

Could you guys get back on topic and talk about rFactor 2 - Sun glare??!!

IMHO the sun glare and graphics discussion go with each other.

[Tim Wheatley]

When someone in the art world and not the gaming world talks about something being photo-realistic.. They are saying the artwork looks so real it could be a photo of a real place. Video games compare closer to an artist's interpretation of the real world then a photographer's photograph.

This is photo-realistic.

(Oil Painting on Linen by Ralph Goings) You can't tell the difference from a real photo and nothing is exaggerated.

That's an absolutely fantastic piece. It took me a while to realise it wasn't a photo. Once you start looking though you can see some issues, mostly with perspective (the price boards and the area behind it doesn't decrease in size at the same rate on the left and right of the picture), etc. Very nice though.

[Tim Wheatley]

You guys are freaking hilarious. You cry and cry to see screenies then when you do you bitch that it's not up to YOUR standards. rF2 obviously doesn't have dirt3 or shift2 graphics. Get over it! Not to mention when you guys try to prove that you're the experts you think you are show graphics from another game that gets it right, not real life. Maybe some of these things you guys expect can't be done. Ever think of that?

Partly true, as no two softwares are the same. There's always got to be give and take. But also the comparisons are often done with the non-driving graphics of the softwares, too, and we've put absolutely no dev time into making it look prettier in replay. See my longer post above, as I have seen some non-realistic stuff being touted as great.

If done in other production means it can be done
If some programmers say that it is even easier to get rl-looking effect - means it can be done.

CdnRacer, you are boring.

No two productions are the same. Absolutely none of them. But see my longer post above.

Just want to note, you two are the guys I have my eyes on at the moment. You both need to be a little nicer, please.

[Uff]

And like you said NFS has plenty of overdone post-processing effects and filters, classic from other modern videogames.

But it can still be taken as a good reference point.



Hopefully ISI will post-fx right too!

[mschreiner]

I think most need to understand that Tim is posting WIP Pics of what is going to be part of RF2. Understand they are WIPs and not a completed process as of yet. I think one of the best points made on the pic for sun glare was about the mirror to remind them so it does not get overlooked.

I bet we will be impressed with the initial release of RF2 which will have alot of new stuff we have been asking for. I'll take any graphics improvements from RF1 but I really want to see the physics improvments as a modder to make the vehicle drive as realistic as we can. Heck I will be happy if they make it where we can make a side mirror have correct position and not be tied in with the rearview mirror.

Look forward to what will be out soon from ISI and then we can hammer them with things for the next updated version!!!!!!

Cheers All!!!!!!

[Niksounds]

the "breakballers" are always in the world ahah

And i'm in tune with this words:

"I think you are massively, MASSIVELY, underestimating the difficulty of developing graphics for the dawn, day, dusk..."

The most of persons in this life makes the works "easy".. understimating (for ignorance) the complexity of a specific work.

This is the world :-)

[Domi]

But it can still be taken as a good reference point.



Hopefully ISI will post-fx right too!

Well yes, of course it can look good also, but the overall look for me is not very realistic. But I would like to ask now if you can run those graphics with a 50 driver grid at Spa Francorchamps, for example, without loosing too much performance

It's always easier to develop a game when you know you are going to have a limit of cars, like Shift 2 (16 drivers I think). It's quite interesting too see that all the big well-known racing games are limiting the number of cars to 12-16 usually (Forza 3, GT5, Shift 2...) that's for a reason...

[shum94]

The screen shows rF2 with justice, finally some filtering is on. It looks sharp, the megane model looks great (nice work lo^ or whoever did it).
I could moan about the damn mirrors who look funky (not in this screen), but i shouldnt as it's not final.

It no longers looks like rF 1.5 and i really wish we had a video to see these babies running. 40 cars with this graphical engine, animations, weather & time scale and ISI improved physics & ffb. I'm in !

If the shadows are right, 24h race will take a new dimension as the track atmosphere will change litteraly, plus weather ^^
Prepare yourself to race at night with rain with this beauty ^^

I might freeze myself like eric cartman did in an episode of south park to avoid the wait

[Tim Wheatley]

The screen shows rF2 with justice, finally some filtering is on. It looks sharp, the megane model looks great (nice work lo^ or whoever did it).
I could moan about the damn mirrors who look funky (not in this screen), but i shouldnt as it's not final.

It no longers looks like rF 1.5 and i really wish we had a video to see these babies running. 40 cars with this graphical engine, animations, weather & time scale and ISI improved physics & ffb. I'm in !

If the shadows are right, 24h race will take a new dimension as the track atmosphere will change litteraly, plus weather ^^
Prepare yourself to race at night with rain with this beauty ^^

I might freeze myself like eric cartman did in an episode of south park to avoid the wait

That 3-part episode is one of my favorite South Parks.

Gah, those mirrors. Hope to see them at the top of the list sometime.

[RT1971]

The screen shows rF2 with justice, finally some filtering is on. It looks sharp, the megane model looks great (nice work lo^ or whoever did it).
I could moan about the damn mirrors who look funky (not in this screen), but i shouldnt as it's not final.

It no longers looks like rF 1.5 and i really wish we had a video to see these babies running. 40 cars with this graphical engine, animations, weather & time scale and ISI improved physics & ffb. I'm in !

If the shadows are right, 24h race will take a new dimension as the track atmosphere will change litteraly, plus weather ^^
Prepare yourself to race at night with rain with this beauty ^^

I might freeze myself like eric cartman did in an episode of south park to avoid the wait

I'm happy now because shum94 is happy and he watches South Park.
Been waiting for the system to flush before I posted, I think what has been shown so far indicates that we will end up with a polished well balanced sim, designed for driving with some eye candy. But the most important thing is it will be moddable and will continue to be developed with our input which does not happen with other games, they just make you buy a new version of the same conveyerbelted clones. 2cents payed

[MaXyM]

Are you a fanboy? Or, an anti-fanboy? Because I actually see more totally one-sided comments out of you than anybody.

So, by your definition fanboy is anybody who give one-sided comments ? Isn't it equal to have own opinion?
Since now I will clap the hands for every screenshot you will show, even if it will be totally off of how it should look.

Getting answer shorter (other things we may discuss on PM if you want):

You may say (and you constantly do) that all you gave us is WIP and that's why it still doesn't look good enough. This is nice idea how to stop our feedback about bad things. So, I'm ready to back to this topic when rF2 will be ready. We'll see if it get visuals to the nowadays quality.

Of course, finally you may say, that rF2 is in permanent development, and never be finished, so current version must not represent expected quality. To be honest I wouldn't surprised by this. I saw the same approach somewhere else

BTW: I'm programmer, quite experienced. I have idea how things are complicated or not. It is also reason why I don't buy everything I read.

best regards

[K Szczech]

MaXyM - please don't refer to my work so often - people may think I hired you

And one important thing - we are getting close to open beta, not actual release, so just like Tim said - first things first. There are many things that can be done to make rF2 better, but you just can't do all of them at once. It's just not the time to focus on graphics right now.

If there are 100 things that you have to do before release and enough time to do them, then you focus on these only.
Even if comunity gives you 100 more good ideas, it's really ok to ignore them, finish your product (to beta stage) and get back to these ideas when there's time.
Of course it's nice to communicate with users, but I don't see why users should demand certain things from ISI. Even if someone's ideas would truly make the product better - there's no time for it now, and it's not the focus now.

You may say (...) that all you gave us is WIP (...) This is nice idea how to stop our feedback about bad things.

You seriously think that is the point?

[Tim Wheatley]

I don't think he does think that's the point, he's probably just hoping to annoy me or someone else.

Also worth pointing out that just because we don't reply, doesn't mean we don't read. Infact the guy mainly responsible for the graphics updates isn't registered here at all, but that doesn't mean it isn;t being viewed. He has more important things to do than to reply and say "read this".

[MaXyM]

Hehe. I used to worked in PR/advs department. I just know how it works.
I'm also developer and I know how we (devs) are working how many time is needed to work on single feature or whole project.

But in this whole discussion I don't blame developers. Even if I can see they are not able to do things better (doesn't matter why) It is not my point to blame them.
I just noticed that some readers make hype pretending that every thing is perfect or try to say 'ISI team is not able to do that because they are not EA' which is irrelevant for most of things I'm talking about, I'm sure.

So again, I'm not against ISI, I love you guys and what you gave us