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FraG
03-18-12, 07:22 AM
I would just like to voice what I think is already widely accepted with many other people regarding the over complicated process of getting servers up and running online with custom tracks.

In our experience of running public rf1 servers, it was hard enough to get the guys to download a custom track let alone what will be required in rf2. The term shooting ones self in the foot comes to mind... the general racers are just not going to be willing to do all what is required to play online.

The process needs to be incredibly simple regarding installation of mods and tracks. My group of friends who play rf1 have an average age of 50 and consume around 50 beers per night.... Explaining to these guys how to get an additional track working online will be an EPIC FAIL. The release from ISI gives you three tracks (with ISI's Megane mod), nobody is playing those any more because they are bored of the same three tracks, and yet there are many more tracks which we can not play... I really don't understand the logic. I know for a fact that if my group of friends hear of this, then no way would they consider upgrading from rf1.

Its an incredible shame for me because I love driving rf2 vs rf1 and was looking forward to seeing the rest of my mates joining me....
When we open a server at rf1 its full in no time even with our custom tracks... With our rf2 server average at the moment is 2-3 players!

rf2 needs to adopt the simplicity of rf1 or I dont see it working regardless of better physics and graphics.
If anything, I was hoping that the process of getting other players on additional tracks would have been a simplified process from rf1. Such as an auto downloader from the server to get any of the missing files required to play. Some guys dont even know what to do with a rar file as it is when they are trying to add a track.

Each time you add a little more complexity for the user, you loose more and more customers reducing your potential market share.
Where is the sense in that.

monkey wrench
03-18-12, 09:00 AM
+1 to all of that.. Really this topic needs to be considered by ISI, Again WHY would you not be able to use ANY track that you have with ANY mod? That decision was a real poor one.

With each update now, I fail to see any major improvements that address a lot of the issues reported here :(

bastins
03-18-12, 09:30 AM
While I don't play online, I have to agree. Being a mod/admin on another game forum, I've had to explain installation to many different people, and it quickly gets tedious. Explaining things to just one person can get very drawn-out... I can't imagine trying to explain and coordinate downloads and installation with a whole server of people. Especially when those people likely just want to race.

Personally, I like the way games like Garry's Mod and Team Fortress handles this situation. When you join a server, it automatically downloads anything you need to play on that server. All the user needs to do is pick a server, wait a few minutes, and then start playing. With such a mod-intensive game, something like this would be very helpful.

Lastly, I'm not sure if online and offline are different, but offline you can use any track with any car series. Just select "All Cars and Tracks" as your series, and then you'll be able to race any car on any track.

Gjon Camaj
03-18-12, 10:30 AM
I would just like to voice what I think is already widely accepted with many other people regarding the over complicated process of getting servers up and running online with custom tracks.

Yes it is, I agree. This is something we are working on. I realize after six years, many people have become comfortable with the current system. This beta process is intended to help us mature a new system so hopefully it will not only give you the comfort of the past but also a more robust foundation for the future.

TBH we have been spending more time on other issues than I would have liked, but the focus is returning to mods.

LesiU
03-18-12, 10:43 AM
Thanks Gjon.
I look forward to test what might be the revised version of the whole "ID" system.

FraG
03-18-12, 12:32 PM
Yes it is, I agree. This is something we are working on. I realize after six years, many people have become comfortable with the current system. This beta process is intended to help us mature a new system so hopefully it will not only give you the comfort of the past but also a more robust foundation for the future.

TBH we have been spending more time on other issues than I would have liked, but the focus is returning to mods.

Surely before any testing begins on your product you would start with the design. So you must have designed it this way, which obviously is not sitting well with the community. It's not a case of sticking with what people know but streamlining the current process, to make it even easier. You didn't do this you have made it more complicated, which could have a serious negative impact.

The community want to see the product succeed, and I especially do as I think you have demonstrated that you have a potentially great product. But it could all be for nothing unless the basic functionality of track implementation is resolved. This should be a priority concern for ISI. I only hope that you will rethink the current design and give the community a solution very soon.

Slothman
03-19-12, 09:49 PM
As I have stated many times. I do not think the MODID system has to change. There are benifits for all in the system.

BUT other systems need to be in place to make it more workable and practical.

And thank you Gjon, that is all I have been after with my posts over the past months. At least it is being looked at because to be frank, there was a lot of us who where getting the impression of...

"its there, take it or leave it"

And that was making it hard to look forward when we had no idea of the direction it was going to take.

Guy Moulton
03-20-12, 08:31 AM
I think it speaks volumes that the tracks modders have released took so long to get online to the wider public. Some groups have made custom mods to get these tracks online but most servers are running the original tracks just because those are the only tracks we can figure out HOW to get online with.

Perfect example. The new GT cars just came out. If I want to set up a server with these cars at the excellent Mid-Ohio ttrack that just came out, I have to create a rfmod and everyone who stops by my server has to have the MOD, the TRACK and the RFMOD. With the old system, if you had the mod and the track, you were good to go.

Spinelli
03-24-12, 02:49 AM
Perfect example. The new GT cars just came out. If I want to set up a server with these cars at the excellent Mid-Ohio ttrack that just came out, I have to create a rfmod and everyone who stops by my server has to have the MOD, the TRACK and the RFMOD. With the old system, if you had the mod and the track, you were good to go.

Are you serious? So that means if i have the correct mod/car and i have the correct track i still cant join other ppl and race online? I also have to have an rfmod file thing to sort of join that car and track together? What the?........ With hundreds maybe thousands of mods, hundreds maybe thousands of tracks, now having those is still not good enough you also need that rfmod for all the combinations of tracks and cars????? Weird, you woulda thought having the correct car/mod and track is all thats needed.

People are going to start makign their own rfmods for particular cars/mods to work with particular tracks and as new tracks are comming out or people want to use other tracks theres going to be thousands of rfmods all over the place for particular cars/mods mated with certain tracks. At least with cars and tracks theres for the most part just 2 or 3 different ones of each, one gp79 mod, one Historix mod, a few different ppls nordschleife, etc

LesiU
03-24-12, 03:33 AM
Unfortunatelly... yes. That's how it works right now. You not only have to have required components (tracks and cars, which is logical and expectable) but also (and that's the problem) a mod file that ties both sets of components together.
I hope we will end up with a system with separate car_id and track_id (so IDs for components) and mod_id will be generated real-time, based on selected cars/tracks in dedicated server settings, so users will only have to have required components (so no need to download rfmod files).

vonHai
03-24-12, 06:42 AM
(googletrans)
if we are honest, nevertheless, the new ' Modding system ' is Bull****, a car or a track must be also to be played so without doing for hours files

Marco Bijl
03-24-12, 10:34 AM
Yes it is, I agree. This is something we are working on. I realize after six years, many people have become comfortable with the current system. This beta process is intended to help us mature a new system so hopefully it will not only give you the comfort of the past but also a more robust foundation for the future.

TBH we have been spending more time on other issues than I would have liked, but the focus is returning to mods.

A quote from mysefl from another topic. It's the only comment I will make in this thread, as I really get depressed by reading the overload on topics about this subject. Some decent forum moderation is soemthing that would be a big improvement for the ISI forum.



Well, lets keep it realistic.

Tracks and car's are something you have to manually install yourself now with rf1, NKP, Race07 and name all the other simulation games. So, to expect ISI to give a sollution to that issue is not a realistic demand

Vmods, the ones I just gave the instruction to create for, are around 7 to 10 Kb. This is surely doable to to have distributed via a hosting server.

So, the sollution is quite simple. Supply 1 button on the client side, which enables to download the mod from the server it is hosting.
Add a function to the dedicated server to push the mod to the client (JUST the vmod).

Then supply a bit more info on the mod in the server selection screen, so people know where to download their tracks and cars.

The result?

A waterproof system against cheating and client/server mismatches. Combine this with the function to have vmods contain complete skin packs and league information, and the system becomes a huge improvement to any other game around.

People simply forget the reason why this BETA is released. It's for Modders, to test the functions and create content. Not to have a perfect, flawless game on the market now. And it's in humans nature to start flaming around then.

MaXyM
03-25-12, 07:59 AM
Marco, what is the point of your idea?

ModID is intended to be used for filtering servers and/or allowing connect to a server. Untill you download mod from server you will probably not see it. So, how you want to download a mod?

Another issue is, that you need to have installed all components installed on server (represented by modif) even if you are sure you will be race only one car and one track.

Problem is not with downloading vmods from server. It is just wrong idea to identify content on both sides by pairing cars and tracks.


I really get depressed by reading the overload on topics about this subject

Because a lof of people don't take a time to understand situation and enumerate all possible issues. Probably including you. No offence.

BTW: overload of similar topic shouldn't surprise anybody. This stage of beta testing is intended to test just this part of software. Why do you want to moderate it in any way?

Marco Bijl
03-25-12, 01:46 PM
Moderation to 1 topic, is done to keep overview. Spamming all topics with the same content (dislike of the system) does NOT help the forum, does NOT help in finding answers, and does NOT improve reading... Thats why I want moderation. And please do not start telling me i do not know what Moderation is, as I am doing moderating for about 10 to 15 years now, on several succesfull fora.

Please note that its MODERATION I ask for, not CENSURATION! It's a big difference, as I find that everyone should be allowed to say what he wants to get off his chest. There should be a place to ventilate all thoughts about the new system.

In terms of taking time to understand, I dare to say that I have spend a HUGE amount of time understanding it. I KNOW what I am talking about, as I use it on a daily basis, and have spend about every free minute I have had the last months in rF2. But no offence taken offcourse ;)

In terms of your second argument, that is BS in my opinion. Reason for that, with ALL other games you need to have the content installed as well. Like I said before, you can't expect ISI to solve that issue. There is however a way to improve on it, as it's easy to give some more info about the used content in a server via a information button in the server selection screen.

That leaves the vmod as the sole issue. To be honest, I do not see that issue, when the mod can be distributed via the server side. You do not need to see which name it has, as it's distributed by the server. There are no need for details. ModID's are made to prevent people from changing content when not allowed. To make sure all use the same content and versions in 1 server. It's not made just for filtering possibilities.

Lets give 1 example.

rF1:
I set up a server, containing track X and car Y. You want to join.
You go and search for the track X, and car Y, install them, and join my server. That is offcourse, if you guessed the right version of the track, as there is no guarantee in which version is used. You can't see that now.

rF2:
I set up a server, containing track X and car Y. You want to join.
You open the server selection screen, and look into the info to see which track and car (including version numbers) is installed, and look for the track and car. Download and install it.

So far, nothing different, besides the fact that this makes finding the right track and car more easy then in rf1 already, as you have more specific info from the server.
When both are installed, you start the launcher again, look for the server in the selection screen, and click a Download VMod button. The mod is distributed from the server to you, and you can join.

It's actually more easy this way then before as there is more info available.

LesiU
03-25-12, 02:27 PM
Those examples are great, especially the one for rF 2...until you just want to change to a different track (not already covered in the vmod). Oh... server admin has to prepare a new version of the vmod.
What if we want to stay on the track but want different cars? Guess what! A new version of vmod has to be prepared. What for? I don't know, to be honest.
You as well might have specific info (including package versions and links) for cars and tracks used on a server without the need of having vmod/rfmod/mod_id (whatever). There is really no need to bond cars and tracks into a superior package (doesn't matter if virtual or not). Also, you don't need mod_id to "prevent people from changing content when not allowed".
Having content organized in packages with id is already enough (I mean, a package with car(s) and a separate package with a track. Each registered in the database, like now you do with rfmod, but they are not tied together).

Also, if two or more "communities" decided to release vmod containing a given car+track combination, we end up with a few copies of the same thing existing on the net. What for? I don't know... you tell me, as it looks like that's ok for you.

Or maybe you know all those cons (as you spent a lot of time working with that system and with such knowledge, you are probably know everything about it, right?) but just forgot about it in this discussion?

Marco Bijl
03-25-12, 03:02 PM
Ok, I was hoping for a constructive conversation, but I hate insinuations. To bad those have to be made.

There is much more that can be included in a vmod, which can make it benefitial to a community. It's not "just" a link between car and track. So there are lots of reason to have your own vmod selection spoken from the community view.

There is actually 1 argument in your post, I can't discuss. The "What if we want to use a different track or car combo" is absolutely true. To me, I could not care less about it, as I never do that. I drive 1 car, 1 track per session. Next day something else again, but thats totally personal offcourse. I can understand the problem you are refering to here, and I agree with that as well. Thats one of the downsides of the system.
There are offcourse the AllCarsOnAllTracks mod's, but as content will grow, they will die out as you need ALL components installed tu use those mods. Thats not desirable, and not doable.

But like said, thats ok FOR ME! I do not mind that. So for ME there are no problems with this system at all.

That said, i am already done with the discussion again. I dislike it when people disagree, and start insinuating cause they feel somebody else is wrong in his views.
Second reason is that I only see people complaining how bad the current system is, and asking for the old one back. Instead, people should concentrate on helping ISI making this system work out.

MaXyM
03-25-12, 09:28 PM
There is much more that can be included in a vmod, which can make it benefitial to a community. It's not "just" a link between car and track. So there are lots of reason to have your own vmod selection spoken from the community view.

You have been asked once. So again, please let us know about those all pros.
Point is that we cannot see that. On the other hand cons makes rf2 useless online for most of us (doesn't matter that you may live with it)



Instead, people should concentrate on helping ISI making this system work out.

We did that, reporting that the feature makes problem and cannot be accepted in that form.

What else community should do? Do you mean a person/team which will manage all released tracks and cars updating ATAC vmod any time new version of component will be released? Even so... what about some beta/rc versions released for community just for open testing. Should it be included into ATAC or there should be another mod which will join all cars with all beta tracks, oh.. and what about beta cars? how to join them with all tracks even with beta ones?

And who will download whole bunch of components (tens GB of data) to satisfy dependencies defined in this single huge vmod? Surprised? You deserve for explanation:
- you can see a server with car A and track B installed
- you have installed the same into your rf2.
- you want to join
- bam.. you cannot, car A and track B is joined with other 200 tracks and 200 cars using vmod.. even if not used on this server right now.
- race starts in 30 mins, but for sure you are not able to download 100GB or data in such short time...

I'm not talking about why anybody must be forced to download and install all available stuff if want to race only one track with one car.

It might work under one condition: any one will have installed all cars and all tracks including all existing versions. But it will not happen.

Really, it's not a space shuttle. It is simply logic which has failed in that case.

Marco Bijl
03-26-12, 01:26 AM
You have been asked once. So again, please let us know about those all pros.
Point is that we cannot see that. On the other hand cons makes rf2 useless online for most of us (doesn't matter that you may live with it)

Like said, from a community view, there are benefits. In terms of "club Racing", we are able to have customized rfactor UI's in the vmod. Use icons related to the communities, use custom sounds and/or other tweaks that might be of interest. In terms of League racing, the options are so much better then whatever is around now. Options for whole championships in the vmods, prepared skinpacks and all other stuff people now do with 3rd party software like SimSync. It's not ONLY bad things that come with the system. However, this is said by a Community Race Administrator, so I probably look at it in a different way then a regular racer.



We did that, reporting that the feature makes problem and cannot be accepted in that form.

Reporting something sucks and is not acceptable, is not helping out to make it work ;). At least thats not what I meant. What I mean is making suggestions. Helping out on making this work for all, while keeping the benefits the system has.
In short, there is only 1 problem (simply said). The issue is the "regular online racing". Non-community related driving, with friends or just other unknown people. If you race with a community, there is no problem as the track and car combo are predefined in an announced race evening.



What else community should do? Do you mean a person/team which will manage all released tracks and cars updating ATAC vmod any time new version of component will be released? Even so... what about some beta/rc versions released for community just for open testing. Should it be included into ATAC or there should be another mod which will join all cars with all beta tracks, oh.. and what about beta cars? how to join them with all tracks even with beta ones?

And who will download whole bunch of components (tens GB of data) to satisfy dependencies defined in this single huge vmod? Surprised? You deserve for explanation:
- you can see a server with car A and track B installed
- you have installed the same into your rf2.
- you want to join
- bam.. you cannot, car A and track B is joined with other 200 tracks and 200 cars using vmod.. even if not used on this server right now.
- race starts in 30 mins, but for sure you are not able to download 100GB or data in such short time...

I'm not talking about why anybody must be forced to download and install all available stuff if want to race only one track with one car.

It might work under one condition: any one will have installed all cars and all tracks including all existing versions. But it will not happen.



There is actually 1 argument in your post, I can't discuss. The "What if we want to use a different track or car combo" is absolutely true. To me, I could not care less about it, as I never do that. I drive 1 car, 1 track per session. Next day something else again, but thats totally personal offcourse. I can understand the problem you are refering to here, and I agree with that as well. Thats one of the downsides of the system.
There are offcourse the AllCarsOnAllTracks mod's, but as content will grow, they will die out as you need ALL components installed tu use those mods. Thats not desirable, and not doable.
Like said, I have to agree on you there. With the current system, that would be a problem. There are ways around that, but that needs tweaking of the system by ISI.
When I say "help ISI making this work", I mean making suggestions HOW this system CAN work for all. Well, most of us, all is undoable as it's impossible to please the whole world offcourse.

So, the actual question I would like to see addressed and answered, in a positive and constructive way, is what does ISI need to do to make this system work for both the communities, and the regular casual online racer.

F.i. what if the system was tweaked in a way that the vmod can be installed while NOT all components in the mod are installed? That would prevent the issue of downloading the Gb's in data.
Combine that with the option I gave to "push" the mod via the server side to the client, and you are back to the rf1 idea again, with all benefits for the communities included.
If you would like to have a go on a public server, you just see what track and car are used (via the info button/section I suggested f.i.), make sure you have those 2 installed (and ONLY those 2! Nothing else is needed), go to the server selection screen, have the vmod pushed over, and start driving. If you would like to change track or car, the server admin has to restart the server anyway, so a manual action is required anyway. No difference between rf1 and rf2 there. It's just that the admin needs to have his vmods sorted, and prepared.
If not all content is needed to install, and ISI fixes the Dedicated server with the opponent and car selections, the server admin can simply restart the server with the new content activated, whilst still using the same mod. No need to download Gb's of data, or at least download more then before in rF1.

There is 1 big difference here. Thats that I keep saying the system stays, but it is adjusted to fit the needs of most online racers. There is difference in that compared to stating the system is bad, and needs to be removed and go back to the old days. Progress is hard, difficult, and never comes easy. We need to help in a constructive way, instead of just complaining and saying the old days where better.

LesiU
03-27-12, 06:08 AM
Marco, but you don't need vmod to have alternative UI or skin pack :) You can install them as separate packages. So those are not "benefits of having vmod" as you can have them anyway (but just not tied to specific car/track pack).
But I agree of having an OPTION to create vmod (or just "mod") package, for league purposes. But as an OPTION!

As for helping ISI... there already were many propositions of an alternative system to the current "mod_id" thing and how it could work... that's not enough for you? :)

Oh, and you don't have to answer ;)

Marco Bijl
03-27-12, 06:23 AM
Hahahah When the discussion is done on a normal repsectfull matter like now, I always try to answer LesIU :)

The benefit, as seen from the community admin part of view, is that the UI, skins etc, are mandatory now, and supplied with 1 file, like in SimSync. I do not need any 3rd party software to distribute the files. When hosting a event for 50+ drivers, you want to make sure all files are ok, and this way, I have full control as administrator (again, just like simsync). Therefore, I like the functions.

In my opinion, the most simple option would be to enable the All Cars and Tracks version of the OFFLINE version in the server as well (The ANY RFM version that is). It is installed by default when you install rfactor, it's just not enabled for online.

That way, you would have the best of 2 worlds in my opinion.

1 - I can have my fun with the mods, and limiting the cars to be choosen from to those I select
2 - You can have a generic event, running any car on any track.

Offcourse, my previous suggestions stay valid, as the Info button, and the Download VMod button would still be a compliment to the game.

To me, this is THE best sollution. I understand the objections people have against the current setup, I just do not agree with them all, and think a lot of the side arguments are BS. Expecting ISI to supply a place to download all possible tracks for instance. People have no CLUE what kind of financial costs this brings...

It's is so easy to solve the cause of all this, and still leave the options open for Race Administrators like me, to make use of the limitations the current system has.

However, I am sure there is a reason why ISI has not enabled that, and I am not aware of that reason. It could be a valid reason, could be it is not a valid one. I can't tell.

Foxtrot
03-27-12, 08:43 AM
Bleh, same old crap, new thread.
Only server should need the vmod. It should have seperate id's for cars and tracks. When client joins, server checks client for car id and current track id. Also check skin pack package or whatever for leagues. Anything beyond that is overkill imho.

Of course the system is already fine for leagues, everyone in the league will know how to get everything. It's a useless system for casual racers and/or racers that just don't have the free time on their schedule to be in a league.

If online racing was my big thing in RF2 I would have requested a refund already. 2 or 3 public builds released and we still have this gamebreaking feature.

Marco Bijl
03-27-12, 11:43 AM
What I don't get is why, because you don't like it, the vmods are per se a bad thing. The option I suggest, eliminates all troubles you would be having, and enables all features I need. So whats the problem with that? There is nothing difficult about it anymore. To the client side (for the casual racer) all seems the same as f.i. rf1. And still thats not good enough? Why force people like me, and those who join my league to use 3rd party mess like simsync, when the functions can be implemented in game without hassle for others?

I just don't understand.

And about the new thread thing.. Think I mentioned something about moderation already....

Foxtrot
03-27-12, 06:27 PM
Marco, I think your misreading my post.
Nothing I said would stop you from using your custom menus, icons or whatever for your league.
That said your idea of downloading thru the server isnt the answer either. Sure it seems great now with only a handful of addon tracks around, but down the road when guys have a hundred tracks on their server do you really think everyone should have all those tracks just to do a pick up race...

Basicly what i'm trying to say is I like id's, I just dont like the cars and tracks sharing an id. I don't understand whats so difficult about having the server check cars and tracks seperately(preferrably current track only).

Marco Bijl
03-28-12, 02:17 AM
Well Foxtrot, then you didn't read my post correctly as well :).

As I suggested, with the Any RFM option enabled in multiplayer mode, you do NOT need to have ALL tracks installed, just the one you want to race on at that moment. Downloading through the server is just an extra feature for those who do want to use the extra functionality.

MaXyM
03-28-12, 06:00 AM
Let's say, your suggestion will be implemented.
So, if client must not have content consistent with server, event if MOD links cars and tracks which client has not installed..
What is the point to even work with ModID then?

Marco Bijl
03-28-12, 12:18 PM
The point is not relevant in the use you have of rfactor2.
It's relevant in the use I take out of it. like said, the best of 2 worlds....

For your experience, indeed there is no benefit besides the fact that the content you have, is exactly the same as on the server (so no cheating, as the modid will change when something is changed). Thats the only reason from your point of view to have the ID.

For me, it's about the same. I know, as admin, that all members driving with the (league)mod I made have and use the same content as well. No more sneaky changes....

So the client DOES have the same content as the server is RUNNING at that moment. The only difference to the current system is that the UNused installed content on the server is not needed at the client side, so as a client you are not obligated to have ALL the same content installed as the server has. Just the track and car you are running at that time.

Pzar
03-29-12, 07:16 PM
The way I think about it, it would be easier to think of VMOD as server/client profiles. And the server/client should be able to create these on the fly.

Cars/Tracks/Sounds/UI's/etc already have Mod ID's built into them (as most of us know) and the VMOD is just a list of what's in this "mod", so the on the fly created one would (more often than not) just be a list of the ModID's of packages the server/client has installed.

Now, as for the "you may have to download 200GB of data to play on a server", the server should be able to set hard/soft/no requirements for each package. And have a screen similar to the mod manager in which to set this.

Hard requirements being "You must have this installed to play on this server" which would be useful for people running leagues/etc, and is fairly close to what we have now, except the VMOD process should be automated. (So like Marco was saying, the server pushes the vmod to the client when the client tries to join, and the client checks it has all the required components.)

Soft requirements would be "The server has these components available, but doesn't require them". This one is why I was saying the client should also be able to make the vmods and push them to the server as a "This is what I have" type thing. So the server runs as normal, but when it goes to switch (for automatic servers) tracks/car types/whatever, it skips over anything that the people who are currently joined do not have. (Or if an admin tries to manually switch, it would let them know that someone doesn't have x component) This would naturally require the current track/cars to be temporarily set as "required", but it could also pass on to a client trying to join that it's only required for this session. (So in this one, the server passes the vmod to the client, so the client sees what is available on the server, but the client also passes a vmod to the server, so the server knows what the current clients have)

No requirements are obviously just ones the server has installed, but does not intend to use.

And while writing them up, I thought of a "banned" requirement level, specifically for UI type components, but I know not how well that one would work, it's just a small thought. With the current installing/uninstalling methods for mods, it could get messy, if there was a way to just temporarily turn them off, this one could work.



So this would allow servers to have either tight (league servers) or loose (pub servers) control on what mods people have installed when they join. And with the way I see it running, if you have to get 9001 mods to join a server because they're all set to "required", that's a server admin problem, and if you have to download an entire series with 30 types of cars and 20 tracks just to get one car for a specific server, that's a mod packaging problem.

That's how I see it working, (or how it should work) anyway.

Silent_alarm
04-03-12, 08:38 AM
Whati if when you make a server, you could choose MULTIPLE car series, multiple tracks and multiple packs as you wish and mix them up just the way you like. You should be able to take the best out of everything.

When someone would try connet to the server, it would send a checklist of RFMOD ID's to the player like it does now. If you miss something, a pop up would appear in front of you with the missing RFMOD id(s) and mod name(s), and possible location where to download it(/them) from, the location(s) could be included somehow in the RFMOD file(s).

For instance, someone has made a Subaru Impreza mod, and someone else has made Mitsubishi Evo mod. Neither of them would contain no tracks. Server host intends to drive these on the old 60's formula tracks and Megane Trophy tracks and on one custom road.

Players would need 5 RFMOD files, that equals 5 RFMOD ID's.

At the end of the day, it would be easyer if we would have seperate packages for cars and tracks. I prefer vintage tracks and modern street and race cars to be my cup of tea for most of the time. So having a huge pack of vintage racing cars taking lots of HDD space for nothing isn't so good idea just because you would want the tracks. Separating these would be a good idea, but at the same time it would bring trouble to some people because they should first find the car pack, and then the track pack.

What comes to the PUSH system through the servers? It's a good idea but i sort of find it rather compromising for PC security. Some server could hold a modified version of some mod that has something like trojan inside, so you download the whole package with the dirty stuff because you want the mod to go play. Plus it eats the bandwith from the main thing, racing.

While it probably wouldn't spread it for long time, it would definately hurt the online gaming community.

MaXyM
04-03-12, 10:33 AM
For me, it's about the same. I know, as admin, that all members driving with the (league)mod I made have and use the same content as well. No more sneaky changes....

So the client DOES have the same content as the server is RUNNING at that moment. The only difference to the current system is that the UNused installed content on the server is not needed at the client side, so as a client you are not obligated to have ALL the same content installed as the server has. Just the track and car you are running at that time.

I understand this point. But it is not reason to tight tracks and cars together.
The goal may be reached just by verifying content of single components which are used during the connection.

Spadge
04-27-12, 04:34 PM
Component version checking prior to join is A Good Thing. It was missing in rf1, and the ensuing mismatches were enough of a problem that ISI thought about how to fix it for rf2.

So they came up with an idea that would handle it. During beta testing this idea proved not to be the solution it was hoped to be and ISI are looking at how to use what was good in the idea without the bad.

The only things wrong with the rfmod/vmod system as it currently stands is that it is not transparent to the end user and that it limits sessions to car/track combinations for pick-up races. If I were running a league I'd be pretty happy to use the rfmod/vmod system almost exactly as it is right now.

rer8
04-27-12, 09:26 PM
There has to be a better way.

jimcarrel
04-27-12, 10:04 PM
rer8, agree, it is a pain in the bum.
The only good thing I have gotten out of "this", is you meet new people while trying to help them get on a server.

Usually its a matter of tracks being placed in the right folder, but never clicked on and "installed" in the Mod Manager. Even people that know what they are doing miss the "no" in the install column of Mod Manager. Even done it myself and knew better.

Tony
04-28-12, 07:01 AM
..In our experience of running public rf1 servers, it was hard enough to get the guys to download a custom track let alone what will be required in rf2. The term shooting ones self in the foot comes to mind... the general racers are just not going to be willing to do all what is required to play online.

The process needs to be incredibly simple regarding installation of mods and tracks. My group of friends who play rf1 have an average age of 50 and consume around 50 beers per night.... Explaining to these guys how to get an additional track working online will be an EPIC FAIL...

Good point well put Frag, why over-complicate in the first place with a 3rd specific mod/track file? - Keep it simple ..mod & track & you're good to go :)

vonHai
04-28-12, 07:46 AM
Component version checking prior to join is A Good Thing. It was missing in rf1, and the ensuing mismatches were enough of a problem that ISI thought about how to fix it for rf2.

So they came up with an idea that would handle it. During beta testing this idea proved not to be the solution it was hoped to be and ISI are looking at how to use what was good in the idea without the bad.

The only things wrong with the rfmod/vmod system as it currently stands is that it is not transparent to the end user and that it limits sessions to car/track combinations for pick-up races. If I were running a league I'd be pretty happy to use the rfmod/vmod system almost exactly as it is right now.


for a league it is good absolutely, but not if you want to insert only one car or a distance, you must write for hours mas-dats and rumschieben and this is big Bull **** what was much easier in rF and quicker and, therefore ", is also still 'topical" rF

GoogleTrans

rer8
06-25-12, 08:12 AM
Build 90 has brought the ability to get a download of the "race" mod on the fly. What I mean is that an online player reviewing possible races may select a race, get the ubiquitous pale yellow telling him that he does not have the necessary parts to play, and if the host (I really don't know) has made the downloads available, he can download the mod. Great idea, but before you press that button you better memorize the game name because once the download is complete you are at the top of the list. Not a huge problem, but if there are 25 online races in the Brabham, it is a pain to find again. There is a glimmer of hope for the ModID process here.

Having begun the process of learning to make a "mod" for a small group of guys who like to race together I have found the process is a little time consuming and clearly does not allow for the spontaneity of rF1, but it is doable. I can see that I may very well have 100's of these things downloaded over time. The rub here is I have no easy way of knowing precisely if the file I have is important enough to save, or no longer useful and should be discarded. It clearly will require some file reviewing on a regular basis to keep the harddrive from overload.

Gjon, I see the direction this is going, and although I will miss being able to jump from one car mod and track, and into another car and track on the fly as I was able to in rf1, this will work, I think. Perhaps some programming genius will devise an application that we can plug in cars and tracks and build a vmod in a minute or so, and have it saved or discarded at the end of a session.

Gjon Camaj
06-25-12, 03:30 PM
Build 90 has brought the ability to get a download of the "race" mod on the fly. What I mean is that an online player reviewing possible races may select a race, get the ubiquitous pale yellow telling him that he does not have the necessary parts to play, and if the host (I really don't know) has made the downloads available, he can download the mod. Great idea, but before you press that button you better memorize the game name because once the download is complete you are at the top of the list. Not a huge problem, but if there are 25 online races in the Brabham, it is a pain to find again. There is a glimmer of hope for the ModID process here.
Yea, the list shouldn't resort, something that can be fixed. However it may not be an issue as the goal is to skip the second step. You get the Server List of components and if you have all of them it should join the race for you.


Having begun the process of learning to make a "mod" for a small group of guys who like to race together I have found the process is a little time consuming and clearly does not allow for the spontaneity of rF1, but it is doable. I can see that I may very well have 100's of these things downloaded over time. The rub here is I have no easy way of knowing precisely if the file I have is important enough to save, or no longer useful and should be discarded. It clearly will require some file reviewing on a regular basis to keep the harddrive from overload.
We are looking to add a filter feature, so these small v-mods can be hidden. As they become smaller and more numerous, we may even take the step of automatically deleting them. These files become more like internet cache than important files.


Gjon, I see the direction this is going, and although I will miss being able to jump from one car mod and track, and into another car and track on the fly as I was able to in rf1, this will work, I think. Perhaps some programming genius will devise an application that we can plug in cars and tracks and build a vmod in a minute or so, and have it saved or discarded at the end of a session.
Building a vmod is already a couple minute process and will be improved over time. There is an example here
http://youtu.be/KjQ_eo2zsl4 Min 1:50 to 2:50

deBorgo83
06-25-12, 05:37 PM
Building a vmod is already a couple minute process

I'll vouch for that, having tried it. It's easy.

rer8
06-30-12, 12:59 AM
Gjon, thank you for your very kind response... Just noticed and have viewed the video and look forward to using the mod builder. I will get back and report on my experience once I have a little time to use the "process." Very nicely done.

Randy

rer8
07-04-12, 02:06 PM
Finally had some time to look at the video and try out the mod builder that Gjon spoke about above. Quite correctly, Gjon said that a track and car could be placed in a "package," validated and run online. If you are only building a mod that has 1 car and several tracks, like I did, it takes about 30 to 45 seconds to accomplish. It is quick and easy. I then "hosted" a pass worded "test" game and it was posted and I was able to log into the game.

The remaining hurdle for me is to learn how to make the mod and components available for download when the other drivers want to join the game. :cool:

MarcG
07-04-12, 02:08 PM
Finally had some time to look at the video and try out the mod builder that Gjon spoke about above. Quite correctly, Gjon said that a track and car could be placed in a "package," validated and run online. If you are only building a mod that has 1 car and several tracks, like I did, it takes about 30 to 45 seconds to accomplish. It is quick and easy. I then "hosted" a pass worded "test" game and it was posted and I was able to log into the game.

The remaining hurdle for me is to learn how to make the mod and components available for download when the other drivers want to join the game. :cool:


all well and good for online, but a PITA for offline...or will be when theres loads more mods and tracks anyway (currently its OK). The system just needs tweaking I think before it becomes what it could be...and that's Brilliant!

Jorgen
09-30-12, 02:15 PM
What is this going to be like with 500+ third party mods and 500+ third party tracks? 25000+ vmods?

K Szczech
09-30-12, 04:02 PM
No. Vmod only describes what's currently required on given server.

So we only need as many vmods, as there are servers.
And one person only needs as many vmods as many servers he joins or hosts.


System is not yet fully automated. It should be better, so let's hope it will be better.