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ZeosPantera
11-07-11, 02:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPFFd0sxX6I&feature=feedu&hd=1

This video cuts short the whole car removal scenario but the initial crash and race marshal response and slowly building fire followed by the crews coming to respond in the Chevy S10 pickup spraying extinguishers all over the place. No more leaving the server and crashed cars disappearing when someone leaves a server or resets. This is real, simulation strives to be real, don't let us down.

Guineapiggy
11-07-11, 02:10 PM
A key problem with this is that response times vary from series to series, circuit to circuit and corner to corner, not to mention that a computer interpretation of double-waved yellow flags would be... problematic to say the least. I'll admit I do miss the GPX feature of having to be pushed to an extraction point if your car was totaled but... well, look at these guys, they're crashing trying to avoid this so I can only imagine it'll be a similar (or worse) story in game, especially if you're boxed in by AI or other drivers, not to mention that in lesser accidents where a car is ruined but still drivable you'd be relying on the good graces of your opponents to move it off-track. Personally as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't relate to the car handling realistically it's secondary at best.

A crude feature like this might be doable but the idea of having fire crews drive to the wreck and put out a blazing or smoldering car, soaking the track or worse and blocking the road before craning the wreck away believably seems fantastical even by today's standards, not to mention a very complex feature most will likely turn off if they have the option to cut down on lost track time.

Grubby
11-07-11, 02:30 PM
I agree it's not something I would want on in our League races.

Tim Wheatley
11-07-11, 04:03 PM
Yellow flags are bad enough... Having to trundle by lap after lap for cleanup, too? That doesn't sound that interesting to me...

LesiU
11-07-11, 05:40 PM
It's about expectations. I'm a kind of simracer that would love to see some additional scripted AI work during crashes on endurance races. For example, cleaning crash area from any car parts laying around (instead of having them disappearing after specified amount of time, like it is in rF 1). Of course you could turn that on or off.

Tim Wheatley
11-07-11, 05:44 PM
Seems like an awful lot of work to put in for something to have an option to turn off.

LesiU
11-07-11, 05:47 PM
You can tell the same for other things too, like animated pit crew for example :)

Tim Wheatley
11-07-11, 05:57 PM
I don't consider those in any way similar, either in effect or dev time. But I can see this is a thread I'll be better off not taking part in... :)

K Szczech
11-07-11, 06:20 PM
ZeosPantera - there are tons of ideas one could come up with and even more youtube videos one could post here. If we would start a thread for each one of them then we would flood this forum.

Especially now, when guys have their hands full with upcoming release and we don't know what's allready implemented and what's not.

LesiU
11-07-11, 06:45 PM
That doesn't mean we can't discuss such things at all :)

PLAYLIFE
11-07-11, 07:24 PM
Gold plated solution. If there was infinite time and money, then sure add it.

I think working on the physics of tyre, armco and concrete barriers would be time/effort better spent. So at least when you hit something, the reactions of the car and the damage sustained is more realistic.

ZeosPantera
11-08-11, 12:39 AM
Well, the simplest solution that would take nearly no dev time is allow the server to set the disappear time for 100% immobile cars. Caution flag for X laps or specify in minutes.

MORE WORK;

Perhaps some sort of yellow flash effect around the car while it slowly gets dragged off to the closest side of the track and disappears.

EVEN MORE;

AI driven Pickup that goes from pits to the car and parks behind it while it gets magic'd off the track.

***The slowly building fire is NOT too much to ask.

Kalle Lints
11-08-11, 02:22 AM
I find that interesting and gives little something for races. I hope it can be done with plugins so if you want animated cleanup where the time is related how far crash was from cleanup crew and how many cars drive in that area and so one. I dont think that is work for ISI. Some modding team can do that maybe?

Hutch-SCO
11-08-11, 02:23 AM
zzzzzz

PLAYLIFE
11-08-11, 02:48 AM
In F1 they use tractors and cranes, and besides Asian and Middle Eastern circuits, are super efficient (Monaco) where the average hazard is removed in a lot less than a lap most times.

Pandamasque
11-08-11, 02:59 AM
I was actually full of hope that rF2 already has some drastic improvements in vehicle removal realism. For starters, no instant returning to the pits by pressing [Esc] is a MUST.

Lazza
11-08-11, 03:02 AM
It would be cool, but obviously it has to be lower on the priority list than a lot of other things - unfortunately, unless you're CM, it'll always be below the core stuff that's never really finished (physics, for example) so probably will never happen. It would be great if a framework could slowly be built in to make scripting and setting this sort of thing possible so that modding teams could do the implementation. Of course the framework itself, covering a lot of potential areas, would be an absolute nightmare to develop... :)

As Zeos has pointed out, there are doubtless already some parameters that could be used to help roughly simulate this and other things, where the default will suit the majority (who might prefer racing laps over caution periods at the expense of realism) but those wanting a different touch could tweak as needed - without affecting or upsetting anyone else.

Hutch: There's a pretty well-known saying, starts with, "If you haven't got anything good to say, " ...

theother5
11-08-11, 05:01 AM
Hmm, in the more serious races, I can see this as an attractive part of the overall experience ....

Given an appropriate priority, would this be something ISI could leave the hooks in the code for a skilled mod team to take up if one ever considered it important for their league or club or their mod's feature set?

In races with immature undisciplined players, there'd be no racing so that a mute point then. In serious leagues, sure it would add to the overall experience of the race and hopefully, given the skill levels on the track, it would be a more rare occurrence.

DeDios
11-08-11, 05:46 AM
I was actually full of hope that rF2 already has some drastic improvements in vehicle removal realism. For starters, no instant returning to the pits by pressing [Esc] is a MUST.
yeah, i agree. :)

feels3
11-08-11, 05:55 AM
No more escape by press Escape :)

theother5
11-08-11, 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by Pandamasque
I was actually full of hope that rF2 already has some drastic improvements in vehicle removal realism. For starters, no instant returning to the pits by pressing [Esc] is a MUST.


yeah, i agree. :)

Expand on this for me ... how do you mean.

For me ....

From a racer who crashed out perspective, what's the prob escaping out. Just sitting there is hardly any use. When it's me I'm annoyed enough!

For the other racers on track, within the game, my car can become an AI effectively and can remain there for a lap or two or whatever. [Wishlist .. i know!!!] This gives the other racers still on track a track situation to deal with in the race.

My AI'd car is recovered and then back to full race conditions. I'm out and disappointed.


Now, I don't really appreciate when someone runs wide, goes into the green, loses positions and then escapes out of the race due to impatience and annoyance because they have lost out . That is a pity but more a public server occurrence.


Note: [I]By racer, I mean clean and mature drivers. When I refer to immature undisciplined and annoying people specifically highlight these characteristics.

Lazza
11-08-11, 06:03 AM
There's another aspect of using Esc, and that's in qualifying or other 'official' sessions. It would be nice to have the option to stop people doing it, so if you damage your car during quali you need to drive back to the pits (damage 'fixing' is another matter, would be cool but potentially complex), and if you break the car completely you're done.

Only as an option though - no doubt a lot of people wouldn't care for it. But for really serious racing it would be great.

SeKa
11-08-11, 06:22 AM
+1

maatriks
11-08-11, 01:30 PM
There's another aspect of using Esc, and that's in qualifying or other 'official' sessions. It would be nice to have the option to stop people doing it, so if you damage your car during quali you need to drive back to the pits (damage 'fixing' is another matter, would be cool but potentially complex), and if you break the car completely you're done.

Only as an option though - no doubt a lot of people wouldn't care for it. But for really serious racing it would be great.

I bet it would be disabled in any "serious" sim-racing league as it basically forces people with totaled car (eg wings missing, wheel missing etc) to crawl into pit area (which you would never see in real life) and dangering fellow drivers while doing so. If you like to do that, you can always opt to drive to pit area, you can even check if everyone did so from replay.

Just my 50 cents.

Hutch-SCO
11-08-11, 02:47 PM
I think pantsera only plays against ai cars :)

Lazza
11-08-11, 05:01 PM
I bet it would be disabled in any "serious" sim-racing league as it basically forces people with totaled car (eg wings missing, wheel missing etc) to crawl into pit area (which you would never see in real life) and dangering fellow drivers while doing so. If you like to do that, you can always opt to drive to pit area, you can even check if everyone did so from replay.

Just my 50 cents.

A serious racing series would severely penalise any driver who put their car in a dangerous position in a futile attempt to get back and fix it (bearing in mind such serious damage would potentially not be fixable at all, or within a reasonable timeframe - again this could all get very complex if you try to get too detailed).

Yes, you can sort of do it in rF1, though damage repair options are a little weak. But it's something you need to check, when the game could (fairly easily) handle it and stop any admins having to worry about it. And if it's an option, you can leave it off if you don't like it. Simple.

Ideas for options are just that - ideas for options. Not suggesting the game should always work that way.

Guineapiggy
11-08-11, 05:05 PM
I'd hate to be in that league. Never the less why implement what is quite a complex feature that would assuredly make track modding harder when few people are going to use it, especially when it has no place in ISI's other rFactor titles like rFactor Pro and rFactor event?

John.Persson
11-08-11, 05:14 PM
Well, are we in this for the simualtion or what?

I would love more realistic options out there on the track, would make more serious racing, im all for the SIMULATION part!

Of course, it should be an feature that you can turn of or get scaled down in simpler methods, but I would absolutely love a real simulation of this aspect.

Would make this one step closer to perfection and the real thing, is'nt that what we all want in the end?

Guineapiggy
11-08-11, 05:22 PM
Ideally, yes, but you must choose your battles when developing a simulator. Why not work on improving the AI/tyre/aero/suspension/damage model rather than coding in a feature with limited appeal? You can surely see why people would argue this is a consequence of racing rather than a feature of it. Just as importantly adding fire stations/marshal stations/etc. to tracks would simply serve to complicate modding and we see precious few genuinely great tracks as it is.

John.Persson
11-08-11, 05:32 PM
Ideally, yes, but you must choose your battles when developing a simulator. Why not work on improving the AI/tyre/aero/suspension/damage model rather than coding in a feature with limited appeal?

Well, you really can't think like that, if that would be the case, we would have no graphics or nice objects and so on. In the end we strive for realism. This is actually a feature that haven't really been implemented in a good simulated way in any of the sims up to date.

And it shouldent be a big issue really to get this implemented. It's just a matter of time and priorities, or money =)

Just outsoure the models part and get some hours on a simple ai script for entering the track and so on. It's not rocket science really, it's a scripted event. Make a simple one to start with so it's there atleast, and then keep working on it later on.

Guineapiggy
11-08-11, 05:38 PM
Well, you really can't think like that, if that would be the case, we would have no graphics or nice objects and so on. In the end we strive for realism. This is actually a feature that haven't really been implemented in a good simulated way in any of the sims up to date.I don't quite follow - seeing the events unfolding is very much a part of the sport and good visual immersion directly feeds in to the driving experience. Being cleaned away when you crash does not, rather it is a byproduct. If a racing series could teleport a wrecked car and its debris off of the track I'm sure they would.

And it shouldent be a big issue really to get this implemented. It's just a matter of time and priorities, or money =)

Just outsoure the models part and get some hours on a simple ai script for entering the track and so on. It's not rocket science really, it's a scripted event. Make a simple one to start with so it's there atleast, and then keep working on it later on.Outsourcing is more expensive, you have less quality control and ultimately I think you're greatly underestimating the difficulty of including such a feature, especially in an open platform such as rFactor. You're right, it is about prioritization and improving the driving experience for everyone seems to be of a higher order of priority than a feature that neither directly impacts the driving experience most of the time that is not desirable in many scenarios. rFactor Pro is a good example of this - people use rF Pro to increase track time and experience circuits, not to have to crawl around accidents. Accident response is a slippery slope too as you could argue for driver injuries and fatalities if you argue that a car should need to be doused over the course of minutes as it burns up.

LesiU
11-08-11, 06:04 PM
I bet it would be disabled in any "serious" sim-racing league as it basically forces people with totaled car (eg wings missing, wheel missing etc) to crawl into pit area (which you would never see in real life) and dangering fellow drivers while doing so. If you like to do that, you can always opt to drive to pit area, you can even check if everyone did so from replay.

Just my 50 cents.
It looks like you have never watched 24h endurance races ;-)
Damn, even during 3h FIA GT back in 2005 (or 2006 that was?) one of the S7R Saleens was crawling on 3 wheels back to pits for repairs (but I don't remember how it ended up. Did he get back on track or not).
And you have absolute right to crawling back to pits... as long as you are not putting other drivers in danger with you beeing on the track with damaged car.
Of course in sprints like WTCC there is no point to go back to pits for repairs, especially in R2, but in endurance events you can see that many times.

PLAYLIFE
11-08-11, 07:34 PM
It looks like you have never watched 24h endurance races ;-)
Damn, even during 3h FIA GT back in 2005 (or 2006 that was?) one of the S7R Saleens was crawling on 3 wheels back to pits for repairs (but I don't remember how it ended up. Did he get back on track or not).
And you have absolute right to crawling back to pits... as long as you are not putting other drivers in danger with you beeing on the track with damaged car.
Of course in sprints like WTCC there is no point to go back to pits for repairs, especially in R2, but in endurance events you can see that many times.


Not just endurance. 1979 Dutch Grand Prix is the best example of crawling around back to the pits. Although Gilles didn't realise the damage was irreparable.

Pandamasque
11-08-11, 07:53 PM
Expand on this for me ... how do you mean.
I understand that animated marshals running with fire extinguishers all over the place (and comically stumbling in front of the cars ;) ) may be way too much to ask.

So the easy way to achieve some sort of realism would be this.
If a car crashes and cannot move under its own steam, or the driver presses [Esc], or is disconnected from the server, the car should be slowly 'pulled' towards the nearest barrier (or whatever part marked as 'safe' in tdf file for example). That would a lot more realistic even if the pull tractor is invisible (like those mechanics that push the car along the pitlane in several ISI titles). So the removal time depends on where you crash. Then, provided the server settings allow it, the car should be 'brought to the pits' for repairs (presumably using access roads, but that doesn't have to be animated, simulated time delay would be enough). This is probably only useful for long races. The driver gets back to the garage menu and cannot rejoin the race from the pits until the repairs are done (further time delay, depending on damage).
Same for the quali session. If you abandon the car at the track you may not have time left for it to be brought back to the pits and repaired (if necessary).

PS: rF1 has Safety Car but without realistic car removal and debris cleanup it is absolutely pointless!

PLAYLIFE
11-08-11, 07:58 PM
NetKar Pro has damage time delay in it. I think it works well.

Pandamasque
11-08-11, 08:00 PM
And I do understand that not everybody wants to keep it that hardcore, so why not make it configurable?

maatriks
11-09-11, 03:58 AM
It looks like you have never watched 24h endurance races ;-)
Damn, even during 3h FIA GT back in 2005 (or 2006 that was?) one of the S7R Saleens was crawling on 3 wheels back to pits for repairs (but I don't remember how it ended up. Did he get back on track or not).
And you have absolute right to crawling back to pits... as long as you are not putting other drivers in danger with you beeing on the track with damaged car.
Of course in sprints like WTCC there is no point to go back to pits for repairs, especially in R2, but in endurance events you can see that many times.

Not just endurance. 1979 Dutch Grand Prix is the best example of crawling around back to the pits. Although Gilles didn't realise the damage was irreparable.

Endurance races are exception to the rule, also one example from F1 history of 800+ races does not convince me.

Why am I against this feature even if it would be option? Because it would take time to work it out. Time, that in my opinion would be more useful elsewhere.

Lazza
11-09-11, 04:59 AM
Schu in Spa after hitting Coulthard... now you have 2, at least :)

Exactly how you would implement it would depend on what's available. Is a full response unit, cranes, etc. feasible? Probably not for a long time yet. It could be done but would indeed appear to put a drain on other areas, and obviously it's not something the community as a whole is asking for.

But, opening up some parameters here and there (server-side settings) might be possible to help get some way toward the effects some people would like. And for all we know the guy(s) in a position to enable or set up those parameters might have some spare time while other parts of the game are finished off or tweaked.

maatriks
11-09-11, 05:16 AM
Losing 1 front wheel is "best case scenario". What if I lose two? What if I lose one of the rear wheels? And when I get stuck in graveltrap, what then? Driving back to pits is an option in rF1 and will always be in rF2 as well, creating this complicated system does not seem reasonable to me.

Maybe we just have different priorities, no biggie, I would rather see ISI working on other features.

ZeosPantera
11-09-11, 05:31 AM
I think pantsera only plays against ai cars :)

Eat me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1QsnHq5PBo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jemA1zak26c


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7xT7i6ffy4

theother5
11-09-11, 06:44 AM
Pandamasque, I can go with this for sure .....

I for one am always looking for the fully simulation experience and this is sadly not what appears to be the commonly accepted experience ....

Many want their sim experience to have good physics and handling characteristics on real tracks etc and that's it. Race craft, track situations and the more boring reality of what the truer simulation should entail are less welcome.

maatriks
11-09-11, 12:04 PM
Pandamasque, I can go with this for sure .....

I for one am always looking for the fully simulation experience and this is sadly not what appears to be the commonly accepted experience ....

Many want their sim experience to have good physics and handling characteristics on real tracks etc and that's it. Race craft, track situations and the more boring reality of what the truer simulation should entail are less welcome.Yes, first and foremost I would like to have as real as possible physics and good graphics, then I would like to have linux dedicated server version and some more tweaks and only after then do I want to simulate situations.

ISI cannot develop everything, they have to choose, and my list of priorities would be as described. Even more so, as this can be simulated even today (driving to pits part).

MrDaniels
11-09-11, 01:16 PM
I really would like to see the ability to be towed/pushed to the pits...or some kind of function that would enable you to be pulled/pushed to the pits to get gas...if you ran out...or get the car fixed (if possible). Currently you have only the ESC option...and then you retire.

LesiU
11-09-11, 03:17 PM
You can be pushed to your pitstop if you are within pit area already in rF 1. But on the track? In real life it's not allowed. If you can't get to your mechanics on your own, then that's the end for you.

Nimugp
11-09-11, 04:25 PM
You can be pushed to your pitstop if you are within pit area already in rF 1. But on the track? In real life it's not allowed. If you can't get to your mechanics on your own, then that's the end for you.True MOST of the time, but not allways. It really depends on the series. In europe in general your race is pretty much over, with the exception of most endurance races (and there have been some cases in F1 where the marshalls found it easier/quicker/safer to push a car back on track).

On the other hand, if you look at Indycar for instance, they will help you, even pulling your car after it stalled, so it can restart.

IMHO, in order to do this in a good way is allmost undoable since there are so many factors to take into account. One of the biggest problems I think will be that not a single series is handled the same. Then there is also a problem with online races especially, depending on track/situation. What if a car is crashed and come to a hold in the middle of the track. Other racers are going around it, when all of the sudden the car is pulled in the direction where everyone is passing him. It could create a lot of mayhem I guess.
On the other hand, I must admit that I have fantasised about such a thing, because sometimes it indeed did annoy me a bit that cars are out of the way immediatly when pressing esc. Maybe it would be some sort of compromise if the car would remain stationary in position, and then dissapears after some time, not immediatly when esc is pressed.

Pandamasque
11-09-11, 10:19 PM
Yes, first and foremost I would like to have as real as possible physics and good graphics, then I would like to have linux dedicated server version and some more tweaks and only after then do I want to simulate situations.

ISI cannot develop everything, they have to choose, and my list of priorities would be as described. Even more so, as this can be simulated even today (driving to pits part).Based on that you don't care about damage either, correct?

Guineapiggy
11-09-11, 10:23 PM
Damage isn't quite the same - accident recovery impacts others who weren't involved with the incident where damage is a direct consequence of overdriving the car quite often, much like spinning. Not just from hitting a wall but riding a kerb too hard, from driving in to someone else, from going over the grass etc. Take a look at Massa's performance in India - wrecked his suspension twice by taking too much kerb.

Pandamasque
11-09-11, 10:26 PM
Having realistic accident recovery as a consequence of your actions at the circuit is as important as having car damage.

If you can boil the nuts off the engine during qualifying, run out of fuel, hit [Esc] and instantly go for another try, you're taking an unfair advantage of the sim's lack of realism. In serious leagues admins have to police these kind of things manually. I'd like rF2 to fix this stupid situation.

Guineapiggy
11-09-11, 10:36 PM
I wouldn't consider that a 'serious league', I'd consider that a league with very specific roleplay rules. Again, it also unfairly impacts the other drivers on track. Out of curiosity what would you consider 'realistic'? Would repair/recovery times scale with shorter sessions or could a five minute session be ruined by one accident forcing the entire server to restart? Once you introduce that you'll have to introduce red flag rules which, ultimately, means you might as well not include the recovery simulation anyway. Also, how far do you go with yellow flag rules? It's extremely hard to justify or rule on what warrants different levels of warning/reaction IRL so I'd imagine a computer would be extremely arbitrary in such matters.

You could put a timer on cars being repaired/fixed/returned if you wanted but that still doesn't seem like it warrants having recovery vehicles/fire crews/cranes/marshal posts etc.

Pandamasque
11-09-11, 10:50 PM
Look up realism in the dictionary. I see nothing roleplay-ish in disallowing teleportation and immediate repairs.

Guineapiggy
11-09-11, 10:53 PM
Realism is fairly meaningless unless you apply it specifically. Realistically drivers can get injured or die, cars aren't made of triangles and squares and so forth; that one just doesn't wash. I'm really far more curious about how this idea would be implemented and how that'd impact game-play. It raises a lot of questions. What about barrier damage? What about track invasions? These can cause yellows/stoppages too. What about a variable that defines whether a driver is lucky enough to find a car/scooter that'll give him a ride back to the pits or whether he'll have to walk? Would the really low-rank drivers in a league have to enter the track by claiming they're delivering a pizza to Ayrton Senna? What about limited numbers of spare parts? Would drivers for lesser teams have longer repair times or more limited parts? What about spare part priority?

These delays exist as much as anything else because of limited resources, both parts and man power. Given infinite resources a team would have as many spares as they cared about around, so you're either simulating all resource restrictions or you're picking and choosing.

Don't take roleplaying as an insult by the way, because it wasn't meant as one... but you are. When I race online with others it's a test of who's fastest. We're not acting like we're actually at the track, all that concerns us is that we have the cars respond the way they should so we can test our skill and luck.

ZeosPantera
11-09-11, 11:50 PM
impact game-play

I thought we were discussing a sim?

Guineapiggy
11-09-11, 11:53 PM
The act of simulation is in its self a game simulating the larger game that is motorsport. I don't go in for game vs sim tag pedantry much. Sorry, but we ain't edging toward a deeper meaning by doing this, it's just fun. Besides, simplay sounds unpleasantly sexual.

DeDios
11-10-11, 05:52 AM
Having realistic accident recovery as a consequence of your actions at the circuit is as important as having car damage.

If you can boil the nuts off the engine during qualifying, run out of fuel, hit [Esc] and instantly go for another try, you're taking an unfair advantage of the sim's lack of realism. In serious leagues admins have to police these kind of things manually. I'd like rF2 to fix this stupid situation.
Yes, i totally agree, hitting ESC in several situation just give you a lot of advantages.

sg333
11-10-11, 02:34 PM
I really would like to see the ability to be towed/pushed to the pits...or some kind of function that would enable you to be pulled/pushed to the pits to get gas...if you ran out...or get the car fixed (if possible).

Yeah, this seems like something that for sure would be part of a TRUE sim. In most real-life racing situations a disabled car anywhere near or on the racetrack will cause a safety car to have the car pushed or towed away. You could call it boring or uninteresting but it IS a part of racing. Seems like a cop-out to say 'nah, thats boring'. I hope at least there will be an option for such a thing to be implemented by modders, because for certain there is a 'market' for it.

ZeosPantera
11-10-11, 03:33 PM
it IS a part of racing. Seems like a cop-out to say 'nah, thats boring'.

Another great example of that (or terrible depending on how interested in success you are)

ArmA2 VS Modern Warfare 3

ArmA2 is a sim

MW3 is not.. Calling it a realistic shooter does not make it a sim.

What I noticed about MW3 from gameplay vids it only plays out in the periods where something has gone horribly wrong. A servicemen should NEVER find themself down an alley with no way out but to fight. That means you did something wrong! You F__Ked up and now your life is at risk. A real soldier would strive to never end up in the situations the MW3 puts them.

ArmA on the other hand... Well this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImO4nHKqrOU&hd=1

A mw3 player may call this boring.. but this is a small part of what real warfare is. Crawling and waiting and wind compensation.

Guineapiggy
11-10-11, 05:33 PM
Yeah, this seems like something that for sure would be part of a TRUE sim. In most real-life racing situations a disabled car anywhere near or on the racetrack will cause a safety car to have the car pushed or towed away. You could call it boring or uninteresting but it IS a part of racing. Seems like a cop-out to say 'nah, thats boring'. I hope at least there will be an option for such a thing to be implemented by modders, because for certain there is a 'market' for it.Again, how do you implement that? How do you justify the increased difficulty modding and the time spent coding something people will turn off? Saying 'it's a sim and sims are like real life' is one thing but sims have to pick and choose their battles, pick exactly what they're simulating. Looking at products like iRacing and rFactor Pro I'd be inclined to say that what we have is more of a simulation of car dynamics than a full racing environment. It's one think to say you'd like the feature... how do you see it being constructed? A recovery feature leaves so many questions unanswered. How do you specify track resources? Do you specify team resources? Do you allow for specific series rules regarding recovery and spare cars? How do you deal with the driver returning to the pits? Do they need to catch a lucky ride or do they just walk? Do they have to cross the track? How you deal with it in a reduced timeframe, red flags, yellows vs waved yellows vs double waved yellows? Will modders suddenly need to include fire vehciles/fire posts/marshal posts/crane positions? Will car packs need to specify team resources? How do you code AI so it doesn't make dubious flag calls when real professionals have a hard time making these decisions IRL? Will repair times be variable and if so on what? How exactly does a sim that doesn't register damage on a sophisticated level handle what will need repairing and how long that'll take? What about fires/resource restrictions like F1's eight engine rule? What about repairs vs replacement parts? What about driver injury? What about barrier damage? What about tyre limitations? Surely that's far more fundamental and yet not yet included in the software. These are questions that all need answering and shouting 'REAL AS POSSIBLE' is going to get you sidetracked on to a whole load of pointless complications. Where do you draw the line? I'm genuinely interested in the answer to that one.

sg333
11-10-11, 05:51 PM
Where do you stop is the question, i suppose. I'm talking about just cars on the racetrack being removed but not by 'magic'. If you can build and code a pace car, you can build and code a tow truck. I mean, you could go on forever adding things like ambulance, fire truck, sweepers and on and on and on, but i think a basic tow truck scenario isnt too much to ask.

You could, if the game engine was able for it - add things such as on oval, sweepers on caution laps. You dont need to go into "when debris level = X" level of nonsense, but the addition of a sweeper truck appearing, like the tow truck, would be an addition to the experience.

Hell, i played NASCAR 97 on the PS1 and a tow truck appeared when a car crashed. It didnt do anything, but it was a nice visual

Guineapiggy
11-10-11, 05:55 PM
The tow truck scenario requires you build service roads and adds more details to parts of the track you typically won't see, more AI coding, more complexity and more resources taken up. Sure, it's doable after a fashion but there's a reason no software on the market simulates being towed back to the pits or the debris cleaning process. It also at least adds the possible complication of red flags, track entry points for the vehicle and so on. A tow-truck just appearing seems less immersive than not having one too. If I want to imagine I'm at the track I have imagination enough to know what a tedious formality is like and that's really what we're talking about here - formalities. If a racing series could teleport cars and debris away they would. I don't think I'd be watching my car get slowly dragged back to the garage thinking, "Wow, so real!", I'd be thinking, "Why can't I skip this crap?".

Another point worth considering - single player mode. What if you want this feature but don't want to have to wait for ages for the sake of nobody - do you have to fast-forward the session?

Actually, here's another point; if you're going to include delays based on repairs and recovery what about setup changes? Why is that aspect of 'realism' being ignored here? It's typically far more common a restriction and far more prescient. Is this all about the ignoble nature of crashing or just a chance to rubber-neck and go 'cooooool'?

PLAYLIFE
11-10-11, 07:07 PM
Endurance races are exception to the rule, also one example from F1 history of 800+ races does not convince me.


Although I don't care for the feature (as said, rather them concentrate on other more important things), it happens often in F1.

How many times have you seen a car touring back to the pits stuck in gear, usually from a hydraulics failure. Dare I say we see it every weekend in F1 (practice, quali, race etc). It's more common than you think.

CdnRacer
11-10-11, 07:13 PM
Just give me the ability to give a fellow driver the middle finger. Animated driver middle finger gesture FTW.

Guineapiggy
11-10-11, 07:14 PM
That I can get behind.

PLAYLIFE
11-10-11, 08:36 PM
I'd go a few steps further, and request to be able to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh9NpI3GUVo

GeraArg
11-10-11, 09:34 PM
With the new animation system, would be cool to have accidents like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgANT0OjKBQ


:p :p :p